KraxisSingular

Seems that part of the problem isn't there then. But Bestial Wrath still counts as an Enrage, even if not lumped in with enrage dispels. So I guess that means Bloodbath still works against it. The Beast Within doesn't have any label, so that is hard to figure out as of yet.

Bloodbath isn't implemented yet, right? No possiblity of testing it I suppose.

Great news on the focus front. Should make top tier abilities worth the effort. Even if they might not be worth the talentpoint in our tree (so far I'm not sold entirely, but that Devilsaur looks powerful, even if nerfed). But then again, it was mentioned that you can't just pick up all the top tiers easily, so I guess that takes away part of the usefulness again. Will have to see on that, but so I'm glad.

 

Serpent's Choice

Well, this blue post certainly confuses the whole Enrage/Frenzy thing, not to mention its interaction with Bloodbath and Tranq Shot. I get the distinct impression that nothing has actually changed and we've just been yanked around a bit by bait-and-switch renaming.

 

WarTotem

Updated my post with list of player abilities which fall under Enrage/Frenzy categories.

If anyone in beta can test any of these, feel free to post results in this thread or PM me about them and I'll keep the list up-to-date.

 

Rokh

Basically, the wording on Tranq shot can now change to:

Attempts to remove 1 Enrage and Magic effect from an enemy target.


"Frenzy" will now be used only when a boss/mob's heath % drops below a point, or when a certain trigger is set off. These will not be dispellable.

 

Arcazua

I dunno if I like the idea of Growl going back to costing focus, if that post was accurate...unless it doesn't have a cooldown any longer. If it's simply 15 focus to use, every GCD, that would be very welcome news.

 

Aerynlore

I've been back and forth on this since they posted the announcement. Part of me likes that my pet will just spam Growl, theoretically having enormous threat. However, I also realize that this will cause every GCD to be Growl, thus significantly lowering my pet's DPS. At what point is Growl more TPS than damage specials? Will the AI use higher-focus abilities over Growl? Will it use higher TPS abilities? How will it know when it's best for that to happen?

Basically, who decides the priority on Growl vs Other Abilities? Does Blizz 'hard-code' the priority, or do I get to configure it, somehow? I think my ideal would be that skills I have set to auto-cast get priority from highest-cost to lowest. I would want bite/claw/smack going off whenever possible, and throw in a Growl when they are on cooldown.

Maybe I just missed the specifics on that. Is this change on the current Beta build? or is this one of those 'eventually, it'll be there' announcements?

 

WarTotem

So, as said before, Sniper Training vs buff range:

Since we don't have a lot of knowledge about WLK yet and it's all subject to change anyway, I made some base assumptions:
* Survival uses a basic Explosive Shot / 3x Steady Shot rotation
* Steady Shot uses normalized weapon and ammo damage (if not, see assumption #6).
* Explosive Shot ticks 3 times on the target, excluding any nearby targets
* SoE totem WLK rank gives 100 agi, which will also mean slightly over 1% crit, multiplied with Mortal Shots etc = 1,5%
* You are level 80
* Using the current BoJ crossbow and 50 DPS ammo (as example)
* Sniper Range bonus in not cumulative with standing in buff range of DKs, Retridins or Enh Shams.

Base values:
Steady Shot damage: 280 + 260 WpnDmg + 140 AmmoDmg + 14/2.8 * AP + 20% * AP = 680 + 40% * AP
Explosive Shot damage: 3* (380 + 20% * AP) = 1140 + 60% * AP
AP being the base 'unbuffed' AP you have. I converted all bonuses to fixed dmg + AP scaling.

Now,
SoE totem adds:
Steady: 40 dmg + 0,6% AP (40% of 1,5%)
Explosive: 60 dmg + 0,9% AP
per cycle: 180 dmg + 2,7% of AP

Sanctified Retribution Aura adds:
Steady: 13,6 dmg + 0,8% of AP
Explosive: 22,8 dmg + 1,2% of AP
per cycle: 36,4 dmg + 2% AP

Abomination's Might adds:
Steady Shot: 4% of AP
Explosive Shot: 6% of AP
per cycle: 18% of AP

Windfury Totem adds:
Steady: 108,8 dmg + 6,4% of AP
per cycle: 326,4 dmg + 19,2% of AP

Sniper training bonus is worth:
Steady Shot gain: 40,8 dmg + 2,4% of AP
Explosive Shot gains: 68,4 + 3,6% of AP
per cycle: 190,8 dmg + 10,8% of AP

Here are the turning points:
* Windfury Totem is always better then Sniper Training
* Abomination's Might + Retribution Aura + Strength of Earth Totem combination is always better
* Ab. Might + SoE totem: 109 AP pre-buffs
* Ab. Might + Retri Aura: 1679 AP
* Ab. Might: 2650 AP
* SoE & Retri Aura are not enough to match up to Sniper Training scaling, not even together.

Auto-Shot:
I excluded any Haste% from gear (which reduces the actual WF gain) as well as any DPS boost Auto-Shot will receive. Considering cycle time with only quiver haste = 6,72s, thus giving Autoshot ~55% of AP per cycle, you lower the turning point of just Ab. Might to 1500 AP. Ridiculously low for lvl 80. Add Retri aura and you get 1030 AP after which you gain more from hugging the boss (with 6y long arms ofc).

Conclusion:
Considering 1500 AP including Blessings, pots etc. is not that hard to get even at current end-game situations, Sniper Training is only worth moving for if you have no Blood-specced DK in your raid and you can get a WF totem from a Shaman at range. The problem will ofcourse be that SoE totem also gives your entire raid extra AP, but that is a choice of personal DPS vs raid DPS.

 

KraxisSingular

"... and all the people gathered together to behold Sniper Training as it walked the steps, for the magistrate had decided it was today it's execution was to be. And there was a great hush, and in came the executioners, Ambomination's Might, Windfury Totem and Strength of Earth Totem, and behind them stood Retribution Aura. And the execution was swift and the people went back home. Life had been so short for Sniper Training."

-Book of Raiding, chapter 15, verses 7-10.

Ok, the drama was a little over the top, but I couldn't help but make a little fun.
So, assuming all this holds water, it seems Sniper Training will be a most circumstantial talent. Just like Potent Venom. Seems like deep Survival is going to be problematic. Perhaps Point of No Escape could be useful for the AoE encounters? But again, circumstantial value.

But what about Kill Shot? I didn't think it was on the same timer as Explosive. If it isn't then perhaps the 15% more crit for it at less than 30% could still make it worthwhile.

The thing that hasn't been said much, could be that Blizzard intended Sniper Training to be a PvP talent. It certainly does well in that department (including Aimed does seem to point in that direction).

 

Disargeria

How long are you going to be able to stay greater than 30 yards away from your opponent to make this talent worth it?

 

KraxisSingular

I didn't say it had to be logical. The recent changes in regards to PvP have been, to say it lightly, a little odd. But that doesn't change the fact that Blizzard is intending them that way at this time.

 

Orlgin

With totems reaching 30 yards now, a survival hunter standing 31-33 yards away from the boss should be able to get the benefit of totems. It just means that the survival hunter has very little ground to stand on.

 

Catalept

On it's own, it certainly looks that way... making Kill Shot an excellent 'finishing' skill for SV hunters, and particuarly deadly in conjuction with Master Tactictian procs. However, at present, it's in the same tier as Point of No Escape, which is also clearly a PvP talent. Even at 10 yards, it'd cost at least 2 GCDs to run in, plant the trap on a boss, and run out.... which is not only a big hit on personal DPS, but it's also rather irritating busywork.

Hopefully, Blizzard will tweak Sniper's range... even 25 yards should be fine.

 

orinaccio

Thought I'd share some new comments that I made in Beta regarding the new iteration of Chimera Shot:

WoW Forums -> Chimera Shot - Discussion

TLDR version - Serpent Sting + Chimera shot is an interesting combo as a finishing move but still awkward. Viper+Chimera is still pathetic. No testing done on Scorpid+Chimera yet.

 

WarTotem

With a whole lot of fights designed around the "don't stand in the fire" mechanics, I hardly see how having this 3y range where we can have both Sniper & WF is useful. Besides, Abomination's Might is 20y, not 30, which is the main reason you want to go into range.
On the other hand, the "don't stand in the fire" thing can also be turned around and make Sniper Training the most powerful, situational bandaid talent we know. I'm talking about fights where you CAN'T (or rather shouldn't) stand in a 20y range from the boss. I don't think e.g. standing right behind the melee on VR is a good idea

As for Kill Shot sharing cooldown goes, except for the fact that it can proc EW/HP I don't see any benefits for it in Surv rotations then, due to the massive Explosive Shot scaling we have right now. Even the mana efficiency is very similar

 

Disargeria

I don't understand your reasoning here. A talent forcing hunters to stand at maximum range is a good thing because standing too close is a bad idea anyway? If you can't stand in a 20 yard range for a boss, then you'd have no reason to, talent or not. We shouldn't have to rationalize talents with such terrible logic. How about they lower the range restriction, increase the range of all buffs to a minimum of 30 yards, and let dumb hunters stand with the melee and the smart hunters just get their buffs?

 

KraxisSingular

I doubt they will lower the range on Sniper Training. 25 yards would be tantamount to an 'always' situation. Meaning the requirement could just as well not be there. That is not what they want, I think. They want us to be aware and alert about range.

Abo's Might could easily be buffed to 40 yards. Why does it need to be 20 (I assume because UR is 20 yards)? Even a few casters will like that given that they will scale with AP (Eles taking 28 points in Enhancement for instance). And with totems 30 yards I think it is the best we can hope for. I think Sniper Training and various buffs will be at odds for some time yet.

PoNE Is definately not for PvE, at least not raids. And if Sniper Training remains problematic like this, then perhaps going without either would be the solution. Definately not what I would want.

But a spec like this could be done. Obviously some of the lower level talents could be moved around, and they will still not be great. But 30% extra damage on traps, that should prove interesting in AoE encounters, even if we will still not be an AoE class. Stuff like that. Small things that add a little utility. Question is just, would it be worth it over Sniper Training?

 

Catalept

If ST without totems/auras is worse than no ST with totems/auras, then it's basically a waste of points. The central issue is that, at the moment, Sniper Training depends on someone else's aura/totem management to be useful, which seems kinda broken. It seems that the idea of the talent is to make it so that regardless of totems/auras, backing out to 30+ yards when the target is at 30% health is a net gain in DPS (even if it's a small one). Perhaps if the +15% crit-chance applied to Explosive Shot, that would actually be the case.

For something that's supposed to be a raid-DPS build, there's a lot of dubious points there (Savage Strikes, Survivalist, Clever Traps and the last 3/4 points in Hunting Party). Besides, having one single talent-point available past Readiness that contributes to personal DPS seems a bit underwhelming, even for a utility tree. IMO, Sniper Training needs to made into a viable option for raiding builds... or SV runs the risk of (once again) having a pile of dump-talents needed to get at the One Good Talent (EW in BC, ES in WLK).

 

KraxisSingular

Well the point with Clever Traps was that it looks like there will be a fair bit more AoE encounters (with all the classes getting some kind of AoE skill, or a boost of old versions). 30% duration on Explosive would not be a waste then, just not very optimal. Savage Strikes is definately not great, but the options are Entrapment, Deflection and Imp Wing Clip. None of which will do anything really. Perhaps Entrapment for those AoE situations, but that was what I meant with moving the points as they are pretty weak regardless. Survivalist bring something we can never have too much of, health. Sure talented health should belong with tanks. But what are the options, you would need points there in any case, especially if you don't want Clever Traps.

Surv just have too many crappy talents in regards to raiding. You have to pick up a lot of fairly useless talents. This then gets expanded when the latter talents again become less than obvious. The points needs to come from somewhere. Looking at the current numbers Explosive just isn't an option, it is damn near a requirement the way it deals damage.

 

takel

Edit: Redundant
Too slow in posting.

 

Berfert

It would be interesting if Sniper Training also added
1: You are considered to be 80% of your current distance from any member of the raid when determining the range of buffs.
2: 60%
3: 40%

Ie, we'd be treated as closer to each character (or totem) in the raid when determining if their buff effects us.

 

Krakag

I really really loved that idea. Have you posted this on any suggestion forums?

 

Trogdor

I don't understand what the big deal about taking or not taking Sniper Training.

You go 3/3 EW and 3/3 TotH (lets just assume that most will skip Wyvern and 3/3 PV), so then you get to put 4 points into MT to unlock the next talent tier. 1 point into readiness, 1 last point into MT, and that leaves you 3 more points before you can put points into Hunting Party. You can go PONE, or ST for those last 3 points. Neither of them are going to hurt, since they are only going to help when the situation arises.. and just because one specs 3 points into Sniper Training doesn't mean that other classes are going to up and disappear with their raid buffs.

If you're in totem range and can't trigger ST, so what? You're in totem range. If you're not in totem range and do trigger ST, then you've used 3 points that had to go somewhere. Savage Strikes, Deflection, Wing Clip, trap talents, Resourcefulness, a stray point into Surefooted.. maybe take Counterattack.. hell there's still Wyvern Sting. You're still going to have to spend those 3 points.

We get to take it anyway.. and as I understand the wording, the 15% crit bonus to KS applies regardless of range.

 

takel

Perhaps maybe because as a Tier 9 talent you'd expect it to be useful rather than marginally useful or circumstantially useful?

At this stage of development, I don't think it's acceptable in the remotest sense to throw up the arms and declare "Oh, don't worry if the talent is partially useless, at least it's not as useless as the other options." We should be asking instead how can we make it so we'd want to take the talents, but we've run out of available talent points to use. We should be looking for multiple viable deep spec options rather than one that picks out the ones that actually work to improve the character.

Blizzard replies to claims of bloat by saying they want to have multiple valid options to choose so when you design your talent load out, you have to make some sacrifices but all choices are equally good. What do we have? We have reverse bloat. We have to avoid the rubbish to get the talents that are useful. IE: We have junk talents.

 

Sapa