WotLK Talents & Abilities Discussion - Page 85

Akston · 08/30/08, 1:30 AM

Originally Posted by Galred

Trev:

WoW Forums -> Raid stacking in Wrath of the Lich King

Specifically, this portion:

Now unfortunately this part is ambiguous and didn't get clarified later in the thread. However, what I (and I think most readers QQ'n in that forum) take from this is that the DPS-only classes will all be doing approximately the same amount of DPS.

I don't like that.

I want there to be a hierarchy of DPS with a corresponding decision to be made about how to build a raid based on the mix of players and classes available. Mind you, the DPS-only classes come with differing amounts of raid utility, which is an important consideration, but a side consideration for me. If we're heading toward a time when, to take this to an extreme, any old 15 DPS works fine in a 25-man raid... that's bland to me. I view it as taking the easy way out from a design standpoint, and I find it just plain not as interesting.

Right now you can chalk up a lot of your performance and beating rogues/mages/locks to playing a more powerful class. If every dps class were on an equal footing the most skilled (or luckiest) person would come out on top. Beating classes that you have a mathematical advantage over isn't really anything to be happy about. Basically a good player won't end up getting screwed simply because they picked the wrong class when they started playing.

Class and RNG being more important to performance than actual skill is ridiculous and it is a good thing that they are at least trying to lessen the impact that you class has on the amount of potential dps you can contribute.

Tyranna · 08/30/08, 1:37 AM

Originally Posted by Steelfleece

Well, that change to Viper certainly makes it a good way to quickly regenerate mana while sacrificing damage.

It's not only an instant mini-sham rage, but also, it lowers your threat while regenning by dropping your damage. Wow. this made AotV go from shit to gold.

Tyranna · 08/30/08, 2:05 AM

*edit* redundant. delete please.

Kaji-Boulderfist · 08/30/08, 2:12 AM

I find it funny that we get Deflection that reduces disarm effects be up to 50% for 3 talent points.

Just wondering, have any of you guys EVER been disarmed? I can't remember a time where I thought.. dang I wish I had some disarm protection!

Kaejin · 08/30/08, 2:23 AM

You might find yourself thinking that quite often when fighting rogues in WotLK because of Dimantle.

As far as the AotV change: Wow. It would only take a few moments to completely recover our mana with that, wouldn't it? Probably more time than I'm thinking, but still.

The Beast Master talent nerf strikes me as odd. People were already unsure of if it was worth the point, why make it worse?

Callaloo · 08/30/08, 2:25 AM

Maybe against the new rogue skill, Dismantle

[e] Well, too late...

• Nisu · 08/30/08, 2:48 AM

The new Viper is essentially the end of all raid-based mana problems, forever. Assuming a mana bar of 10k, you have to deal 20k effective damage to go from full to none. Assuming 3k dps at 80, that's 7 seconds. I'm honestly wondering it it's going to get nerfed down to 25% or so before release, because that shames every single other regen skill out there with the exception of Innervate.

◊ Lactose · 08/30/08, 3:01 AM

Aspect of the Viper seems way too strong.
Currently, seeing 4.2k Steady Shot crits aren't too uncommon for me. Let's say dropping Hawk for Viper reduces that to 4k, for simplicity. Under these conditions (4k Steady Shot crits), 3k Auto Shot crits don't seem too unreasonable.
That's 7k effective damage, or 3.5k mana (4.2k with Aspect Mastery) in less than 2 seconds. Of course, this does require a double crit, but still, that's half my fully raid buffed mana right now.
I'm expecting a nerf to the amount of mana regenerated, or a cap -- cannot regenerate more than x% of total mana per shot/second.

I also think it's likely that not all abilities will regenerate mana. Imagine a multi-mob scenario, with Multi-Shot or Volley (or even Explosive Trap). Instantly refilled mana bar in less than 4 seconds seems a bit too much.

The change of direction also makes one wonder about the use of the mana regeneration talents in all the trees. Survival can be justified due to it being a raid wide mana regen effect, but the Marksman and Beast Mastery versions seem both redundant and lackluster compared to such a Aspect of the Viper.

GSH · 08/30/08, 3:05 AM

Originally Posted by Nisu

The new Viper is essentially the end of all raid-based mana problems, forever. Assuming a mana bar of 10k, you have to deal 20k effective damage to go from full to none. Assuming 3k dps at 80, that's 7 seconds. I'm honestly wondering it it's going to get nerfed down to 25% or so before release, because that shames every single other regen skill out there with the exception of Innervate.

It's very strong (my 70 alt hunter refills to full in like 5s), but it also costs 2 GCDs (switch to Viper, switch to Hawk) in addition to the reduced damage. I'd compare it to Lifetap.

Danin · 08/30/08, 3:09 AM

I'm wondering if the "new" Hunter's Mark isn't some kind of mistake where they forgot to patch in a new rank or something. Going back to the exact same debuff we had two years and twenty levels ago seems like a huge step backwards.

bouguer · 08/30/08, 3:11 AM

just a quick reply to those of you thinking the new AotV is the end-all be-all to our raid mana problems(it is). just remember its

instantly regenerating mana equal to 100% of the damage done by any ranged attack or ability, but reduces your total damage done by 50%.

so those 4k crits go to 2k crits and your 1500 dmg autoshots go to 750. so you end up burning 2 GCD to switches aspects, and it will probably take 15-20 seconds to regen fully depending on crits. These shots still end up costing mana, and all of a sudden their dmg per mana goes way down.

Shenlong · 08/30/08, 3:18 AM

Kill Shot now reads: You attempt to finish a wounded target off, dealing weapon damage plus 2768. The sheer power of the attack causes a strong recoil, causing you to be knocked down after the attack.

Also Hunter's Mark seems to still have the incremental bonus, with a max of 1872 with glyph and talent (don't know if glyph is shown in tooltip).

◊ Lactose · 08/30/08, 3:38 AM

Originally Posted by GSH

It's very strong (my 70 alt hunter refills to full in like 5s), but it also costs 2 GCDs (switch to Viper, switch to Hawk) in addition to the reduced damage. I'd compare it to Lifetap.

This triggered a memory.
A long time ago, I did some tests on Furious Howl, and found that if the howl went of while the projectile was in the air, the buff was consumed, but the damage bonus from Furious Howl was not added to the shot in question. Essentially, the buff was very often wasted.

Using this knowledge for Aspect of the Viper leaves us with 2 very interesting facts:
- Damage of shot seems to be determined at the moment the projectile leaves your ranged weapon.
- Aspect of the Viper's mana regeneration is triggered when shots land (works on shots fired before Aspect of the Viper was active).

Stand far back, fire something, swap to Viper before shot lands. No damage reduction, 100% of damage dealt (i.e. 100% of normal damage for the shots in question) regenerated as mana. Swap back to Hawk.

EDIT: I guess I should add that I did test this. The above is not speculation.

@bouguer:
It will not take up to 20 seconds to refill your mana bar in normal circumstances, even with 50% reduced damage and mana costs taken into consideration. You'd have to be extremely unlucky with the RNG or have something special going on.
Assuming even a normal DPS of 2k, that's 1000 mana per second in Viper. In 15 seconds, that's more than enough to fill your entire mana bar, even with mana costs taken into consideration. In addition, mana regeneration will also be provided by various buffs, notably Judgement of Wisdom, Blessing of Wisdom, Mana Spring and any of the mana battery effects.
In its current incarnation, I would estimate roughly 10 seconds to go to full by yourself, without the little bug I outlined above.

Serf · 08/30/08, 4:31 AM

would you recommend an Aimed Shot/Kill Shot setup before the quick switch? Kill shot has the 1 second stun, true, but it also gives you an extra 10 yards to work with.

Shenlong · 08/30/08, 4:54 AM

Separation Anxiety bugged, removes the talent points every time you mount, but keeping Beast Mastery (the talent). Handy free 5 points, if you're so inclined.

Also Freezing Trap's tooltip has not yet been updated, but the new functionality is in.

Steelfleece · 08/30/08, 6:14 AM

Chimera Shot seems to be working properly now. It refreshes stings, and the sting-based proc is working. Incidentally, the serpent sting damage proc is a separate effect that can seem to crit independently of the initial hit (and I believe it is treated as an entirely separate shot, and receives bonuses from various effects based on this). I once got a initial hit crit for ~2900, and then the Serpent Sting proc crit for ~3000. The mana return from Viper Sting is also impressive, I recovered 2900ish mana when using Chimera Shot. And yes, the disarm from Scorpid works if anyone was curious.

Nakari · 08/30/08, 6:29 AM

If AotV stays the way it is, it might even be possible to skip the "mana restore/efficiency"-talents Invigoration, Efficieny and Rapid Recuperation entirely (but not TotH, unless you don't want Hunting Party

) and investing in more DPS oriented talents... especially in a raid scenario with mana regen buffs (JoW, BoW, Mana Spring) and one or more "mana batteries".

Bullshot · 08/30/08, 6:53 AM

MMO-C reports Kill Shot as:

Kill Shot now deals [ 15% of RAP + 2500 ] damage and doesn't deal additional damage against targets under 20% health.

Can someone in the beta confirm that the knockback has been removed? Or is it just an oversight on MMO-C's part?

And Lock and Load was reverted to its initial state:

Lock And Load (Tier 4) changed to: You have a 33/66/100% chance when you trap a target and a 5/10/15% chance when you Sting a target to cause your next 3 Arcane Shot or Explosive Shot spells to trigger no cooldown, cost no mana and consume no ammo. (Previously, was 10/20/30% chance when you sting a target)

Steelfleece · 08/30/08, 7:01 AM

Originally Posted by Bullshot

MMO-C reports Kill Shot as:

Can someone in the beta confirm that the knockback has been removed? Or is it just an oversight on MMO-C's part?

That bit is not quite complete. The self-knockdown is still there, and it now ONLY can be used on targets below 20% health (rather than dealing bonus damage then). It simply actually deals a lot more damage now.

Kaejin · 08/30/08, 9:39 AM

Does L&L work with traps yet?

Is a [Freeze Trap + Disengage (if distance needed) + Explosive Shot x3] combo as ridiculous as it sounds in PvP, or does GCD muck it up enough that it takes the edge off a bit 1v1?

Shenlong · 08/30/08, 9:41 AM

Oh, I didn't notice this before but it seems Combat Experience was buffed; 3/6% agility and 3/6% int now. Considering Careful Aim is now 100%, I'd call it an alright talent now.

A build like this seems the way to go, given that mana issues look to be solved with the Viper change.

Selmarix · 08/30/08, 10:08 AM

Aspect of the Viper now means that you can convert damage to mana with the additional price of 2 global cooldowns (and a bit of mana).
Aspect Mastery is more powerful for that than it sounds.
Without it you sacrifice 50% damage for 50% mana, so a 1 to 1 conversion.
With it you sacrifice 40% damage for 60% mana, so a 1 to 1.5 conversion (if aspect mastery means 40% penalty in total and not 45%).

In long fights that also means that you can consider mana regen effects from raid buffs or talents as damage (a mana pot that regens 3k mana means you don't have to sacrifice 3k damage to regen mana so you can consider it as 3k damage). Of course that only applies if you can actually get your mana to 0 at the end of the fight and does not consider the 2 gcd price for each regen.

Suspiria · 08/30/08, 11:51 AM

From US Beta Hunter's forum:

Camouflage: You camouflage, causing you and your Pet to blend into your surroundings. After 3 sec., you will enter a stealthed state. While stealthed, you and your pet's movement speed is reduced by 30%, but the damage done by your next attack is increased by 50%. You can lay traps while under the effect, but any damage done by you or your pet will cancel the effect. Cannot be cast while in combat.

Anyone in beta can confirme this?

Shandara · 08/30/08, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Steelfleece

Chimera Shot seems to be working properly now. It refreshes stings, and the sting-based proc is working. Incidentally, the serpent sting damage proc is a separate effect that can seem to crit independently of the initial hit (and I believe it is treated as an entirely separate shot, and receives bonuses from various effects based on this). I once got a initial hit crit for ~2900, and then the Serpent Sting proc crit for ~3000. The mana return from Viper Sting is also impressive, I recovered 2900ish mana when using Chimera Shot. And yes, the disarm from Scorpid works if anyone was curious.

Does the extra sting effect count as physical or magical damage?

• Grogzor · 08/30/08, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Suspiria

From US Beta Hunter's forum:

Camouflage: You camouflage, causing you and your Pet to blend into your surroundings. After 3 sec., you will enter a stealthed state. While stealthed, you and your pet's movement speed is reduced by 30%, but the damage done by your next attack is increased by 50%. You can lay traps while under the effect, but any damage done by you or your pet will cancel the effect. Cannot be cast while in combat.

Anyone in beta can confirme this?

If its true, I want to know how effective the stealth level is compared to a rogue of the same level untalented and if we can fully cast Aimed Shot while stealthed for the extra 50% damage.