WotLK Talents & Abilities Discussion - Page 21

Æthien · 07/23/08, 9:48 AM

Originally Posted by Osse

Not just slightly. 51 pointer which gives 5 pet talent points and "unique" looking pet.

They're having a laugh, right?

49/17/5 for the win?

With the current pet talent trees I dont see much of a reason to get a unique pet, unless one of their abilities is more of a dps upgrade than 2 points spend elsewhere.

Conscience · 07/23/08, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

I'm loathe to call judgement on specifics right now. But if we truly are going to rely on Retri's judging to be competitive I have a feeling Hunters might drop very far down the wanted classes. A lot of guilds don't run with Retri's as it is a rather unpopular spec of a relatively unpopular class. More so for Hordes as there is a very common and widespread unwillingness to be a Belf.

Did you look at the new talents in the Paladin's Holy Tree? They are ancouraged to cast a judgement every 30sec in order to get 10% spellhaste, which is 10% more hps, which for my understanding is quite good. So there might be judgements up all the time even if you're running without a Retri.

Ril-gania · 07/23/08, 10:14 AM

@Gokey: you forgot the fact that we won't need a shaman in group anymore in order to get the totems, they'll work for the whole raid. so we'll get a warrior instead, battleshout ftw!

edit: @retri-pallys: even if they are a must-have (good dmg, great buffs for hunters, health-reg for melees, 3%crit for all), if you don't have one in raid, holy-pallies still can put the mana-judgement on a mob if needed and they have time. in my opinion, it's best to have 1prot-pally, 1heal-pally and 1retri in your raid. the othre heal-slots are filled up with ie 2 of each other heal class... but they're alternable

Suspiria · 07/23/08, 10:16 AM

Exotic pet = vanity & useless pet?
/cry.

I'm afraid to will be a oomkin, mana usage for us in wotlk is totally worst, and the "fantastic" new pet's skill force us to looking our pet more than tbc fight. Oh, well, we have a skill for auto-heal our pets, but there are mana issue, pet 100-focus skill, strange sinergy about SV (useless Potent Venom) or MM (Chimera shot, rofl), and other bad stuff... raiding as a hunter is never be that =|

A really question: how many odds to look new skills, and not this confused attempts to destroy hunter class (without talking about pvp... we cant join no one arena bracket in wotlk)?

Tyranna · 07/23/08, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Suspiria

Exotic pet = vanity & useless pet?
/cry.

I'm afraid to will be a oomkin, mana usage for us in wotlk is totally worst, and the "fantastic" new pet's skill force us to looking our pet more than tbc fight. Oh, well, we have a skill for auto-heal our pets, but there are mana issue, pet 100-focus skill, strange sinergy about SV (useless Potent Venom) or MM (Chimera shot, rofl), and other bad stuff... raiding as a hunter is never be that =|

A really question: how many odds to look new skills, and not this confused attempts to destroy hunter class (without talking about pvp... we cant join no one arena bracket in wotlk)?

It's too early to be so negative. Don't forget, this is just the beginning of the Beta phase and Blizzard is still messing around with a lot of stuff. We just have to make sure that our concerns are voiced constructively so they have the best chance of being addressed.

Kigale · 07/23/08, 11:02 AM

I'm loathe to call judgement on specifics right now. But if we truly are going to rely on Retri's judging to be competitive I have a feeling Hunters might drop very far down the wanted classes. A lot of guilds don't run with Retri's as it is a rather unpopular spec of a relatively unpopular class. More so for Hordes as there is a very common and widespread unwillingness to be a Belf.

This is just plain wrong. I'd be surprised if there are many guilds that are more than halfway through Sunwell that don't run with a Ret paladin for some/all of the fights. But this is for BC, we are talking about WotLK viability. Aside from the fact Rets are getting huge personal dps buffs (there will be many more around), JoW will now add 3% raid-wide crit (talented). Every raid will have at least 2 paladins and you can guarantee that 1 will have the talent and will keep JoW active.

The math people are using to analyze the length of time until oom is also wrong. They are using BC rules to evaluate spells in WotLK. Please don't say things like "we will be oom in 54 seconds!" because it is completely false. Even without the new raid wide buffs hunters will get (mana spring and mana tide), hunters are getting talents (hunter and pet) that increase mana returns or efficiency they never had before. Also, as mentioned previously, JoW now has a scaling factor so it will return significantly more mana. If you are attempting the math, please account for all the changes, not just a few.

Suspiria · 07/23/08, 11:04 AM

Yep, i'm agree, but someone had never see any Blizzard interest about users complain? Talent tree seems to be definitive, and we can hope only in some skills from trainer. But ofc all still looking on DK...

Originally Posted by Kigale

The math people are using to analyze the length of time until oom is also wrong. They are using BC rules to evaluate spells in WotLK. Please don't say things like "we will be oom in 54 seconds!" because it is completely false. Even without the new raid wide buffs hunters will get (mana spring and mana tide), hunters are getting talents (hunter and pet) that increase mana returns or efficiency they never had before.

Increase mana usage, add mana recovery skill and pet utility? I prefer old mana system and other ability for raid and pvp, not a tons of "+ mana" and 300 mana for a steady... Too much complicated to understand for Blizz.

Thornbloom · 07/23/08, 11:27 AM

This dev comment suggests 'exotic pets' are not simply vanity pets, but his closing comment is quite ambiguous.

The developers are currently working on the exotic pet talent. Exotic pets are exactly that, exotic and not the average run of the mill pet. But whether this name will stick or not, is uncertain at this point. But these will be a range of new pets with unique abilities, that only those with the talent will be able to tame and train. Where do you get them, well, we've not got news on that right now -- perhaps somewhere, exotic! ;-)

These pets are different from normal pets, but they're not necessarily more "uber" than others. However they will have access to unique abilities not available to the normal pets that every Hunter can train. A Hunter with this talent will get extra power, but from the talent's associated additional pet talent points and not necessarily from the exotic pet.

Source: WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Exotic Pet Details released!!!

mako · 07/23/08, 11:34 AM

I'd stop reading into it so much. They kept the description vague on purpose. It seems the intent is to provide you with a more powerful pet, but not one that is gamebreakingly so.

Who knows, maybe they'll let you take normal pets and spec a different tree from what is otherwise intended? Ferocity Windserpent would probably be top dps in that case.

Redzin · 07/23/08, 11:57 AM

About all the mana issues - You have to remember that the Judgement mechanics are getting a big revamp.

I'm not gonna go over it in details here, but I'm quite sure we will have Judgement of Wisdom up on most fights.

Arcazua · 07/23/08, 1:48 PM

I'm going to suggest something that might be sacrilege to the folks around here that want to find the maximum amount of damage they can possibly do, and then find ways to sustain it, rather than finding the highest amount of damage they can sustain and then try to increase it...but would it be the end of the world to downrank?

To go from steady rank 1 to steady rank 3, we spend an additional 170 mana to get an additional 160 damage. If we're concerned about mana efficiency, and talking about a shot that presently does at least 5 DPM and usually much better than that, why in the world would be increase the mana consumption 2.5-fold just to get a measly 160 damage from each shot? Sure, you'll be quick to point out that an extra 160 damage every 1.5 seconds is 100 DPS, but it's a much greater loss if you can't keep up with doing that throughout the fight. I personally hate farming consumables and darn-near refuse to do it. If I can't find a pattern that is mostly sustainable using rank 3, I'm going to drop to rank 1. The DPM for rank 2 and 3 is pathetic by comparison.

Sure, it's easy to say "we can find a way to handle steady shot mana consumption." But that's under the assumption we'll do nothing but fire steady shot. For the non-beast masters out there who already use other shots and will quite likely factor other shots into their rotation, (Multi for marks, Explosive for surv,) there's going to be other mana-consuming factors and we won't have the almighty Invigoration to fall back on. Even TotH + Hunting Party doesn't look like it will keep up with a rotation that is using 280 mana per 1.5 for any reasonable length of time. In the event that we don't have someone judging wisdom, which sadly is never for me, all we have to fall back on is mana spring totems and maybe an SP in the group.

Ravenfire · 07/23/08, 1:56 PM

Things I hope Blizzard implements before WotLK goes live:

Skills
Aspect of the Wild's new rank actually having more NR then the current max rank.
A new rank of Freezing trap (we learned past ranks at 20, 40 and 60 so a new one at 80 would follow the pattern).
Snake trap is gonna be termendously underwhelming at lvl 80 unless it scales or gets a new rank. (do the snakes use better poisons/hit harder from a lvl 77 hunter's trap?)
TSA needs to scale somehow
New types of tracking would be nice (Mechanical, Insectoids, etc...). Last one we learned was at lvl 50
Another rank of Volley is due around lvl 76-77 (40, 50, 58, & 67)

Talents
BM
Aspect Mastery needs some love. Hopefully Beta hunters are giving good feed back to that extent.
MM
Multi-Shot needs to be included in some of the new talents in some way.
Rapid Recuperation needs to be fixed to work when either is up and when both are up (double 60% reductions for a total of 84% reduction) or reworked to something like shamanistic rage where it will actively regen mana.

PsyBomb · 07/23/08, 2:03 PM

I know my own Beastmaster is going to be taking Exotic Pets whether or not I decide to keep Echeyakee as my main DPSer or go tame one of those exotic ones. Fact it, it makes your pets go talented as though they were FIFTEEN LEVELS HIGHER. That's how the talent boils down for me.

mako · 07/23/08, 2:10 PM

Originally Posted by Arcazua

I personally hate farming consumables and darn-near refuse to do it.

If you're not concerned with playing your character to it's full potential that is fine, but mana potions exist to be used, and farming is trivially easy in TBC, to the point that even a casual in greens can simply do a couple daily quests and have enough potions for the week.

The increased mana costs are not hunter-specific. Every class's new ranks and spell costs are increasing considerably with the wotlk variations, but at the same time, every class is getting regen boosts in some form or another.

Speculating that you can only self-sustain 1 minute of dps with your TBC stats at 80 isn't a valid comparison anyway. Plus, if you're *that* strapped for mana, popping into viper is an option, much more so if you are not specced iaoth.

Æthien · 07/23/08, 2:35 PM

Originally Posted by mako

If you're not concerned with playing your character to it's full potential that is fine, but mana potions exist to be used, and farming is trivially easy in TBC, to the point that even a casual in greens can simply do a couple daily quests and have enough potions for the week.

You clearly dont know Arcazua yet

For farming though, I think I'll just stick to SS rank 1 to not have to bother with any downtime.

Tongaro · 07/23/08, 3:01 PM

Originally Posted by Ravenfire

Things I hope Blizzard implements before WotLK goes live:
MM
Multi-Shot needs to be included in some of the new talents in some way.

Why do people keep thinking Multi-Shot will still be used by MM they have made it so you can go deep in the tree with plenty of nice DPS boost with out ever touching the barrage talents and I think this is a good thing. Multi-Shot has been a crutch for MM for a long time and it is good if they are trying to design away from having to rely on it. It has the biggest mana cost increase for probably the smallest dmg increase of all our shots in WotLK and is situationally usable as you often can't use it on trash due to CC and is really only worth mana wise when used on multiple targets. Also Kill Shot will do more dmg then it even above 20% for much less mana. All this is good I think as you don't have to feel like you have to gimp your DPS as MM around CCed mobs.

• Grogzor · 07/23/08, 3:02 PM

I heard that Multishot now doesn't go after CCed mobs though, is that true?

Sean · 07/23/08, 3:26 PM

Originally Posted by Tongaro

Why do people keep thinking Multi-Shot will still be used by MM they have made it so you can go deep in the tree with plenty of nice DPS boost with out ever touching the barrage talents and I think this is a good thing. Multi-Shot has been a crutch for MM for a long time and it is good if they are trying to design away from having to rely on it. It has the biggest mana cost increase for probably the smallest dmg increase of all our shots in WotLK and is situationally usable as you often can't use it on trash due to CC and is really only worth mana wise when used on multiple targets. Also Kill Shot will do more dmg then it even above 20% for much less mana. All this is good I think as you don't have to feel like you have to gimp your DPS as MM around CCed mobs.

I personally do not want to ever have to spec into Barrage and Imp Barrage and use Multi-Shot in a rotation again. Imo it should be a skill only used as an AE type ability - not a primary damage rotation shot. And I'm glad they've moved exactly in that direction with the new talents and skills.

Tongaro · 07/23/08, 3:44 PM

Originally Posted by Grogzor

I heard that Multishot now doesn't go after CCed mobs though, is that true?

No they considered doing that a patch or 2 ago for Multi-shot and some other spells that function like it(chain lightning) but they ended up not putting that change in.

leafshadow · 07/23/08, 3:49 PM

Originally Posted by Ravenfire

Things I hope Blizzard implements before WotLK goes live:

Skills
Aspect of the Wild's new rank actually having more NR then the current max rank.
A new rank of Freezing trap (we learned past ranks at 20, 40 and 60 so a new one at 80 would follow the pattern).
Snake trap is gonna be termendously underwhelming at lvl 80 unless it scales or gets a new rank. (do the snakes use better poisons/hit harder from a lvl 77 hunter's trap?)
TSA needs to scale somehow
New types of tracking would be nice (Mechanical, Insectoids, etc...). Last one we learned was at lvl 50
Another rank of Volley is due around lvl 76-77 (40, 50, 58, & 67)

Talents
BM
Aspect Mastery needs some love. Hopefully Beta hunters are giving good feed back to that extent.
MM
Multi-Shot needs to be included in some of the new talents in some way.
Rapid Recuperation needs to be fixed to work when either is up and when both are up (double 60% reductions for a total of 84% reduction) or reworked to something like shamanistic rage where it will actively regen mana.

Can I add a Wyvern Sting *without* a DoT component to the list? I just want the target to sleep for 12 seconds under emergency CC, and then wake up. No CC breaking DoT component to follow. If I want a DoT on it, I'll serpent sting it. I can't think of a single instance where the Wyvern DoT has been anything other than a pita.

Tyranna · 07/23/08, 4:13 PM

Originally Posted by Arcazua

I'm going to suggest something that might be sacrilege to the folks around here that want to find the maximum amount of damage they can possibly do, and then find ways to sustain it, rather than finding the highest amount of damage they can sustain and then try to increase it...but would it be the end of the world to downrank?

To go from steady rank 1 to steady rank 3, we spend an additional 170 mana to get an additional 160 damage. If we're concerned about mana efficiency, and talking about a shot that presently does at least 5 DPM and usually much better than that, why in the world would be increase the mana consumption 2.5-fold just to get a measly 160 damage from each shot? Sure, you'll be quick to point out that an extra 160 damage every 1.5 seconds is 100 DPS, but it's a much greater loss if you can't keep up with doing that throughout the fight. I personally hate farming consumables and darn-near refuse to do it. If I can't find a pattern that is mostly sustainable using rank 3, I'm going to drop to rank 1. The DPM for rank 2 and 3 is pathetic by comparison.

Sure, it's easy to say "we can find a way to handle steady shot mana consumption." But that's under the assumption we'll do nothing but fire steady shot. For the non-beast masters out there who already use other shots and will quite likely factor other shots into their rotation, (Multi for marks, Explosive for surv,) there's going to be other mana-consuming factors and we won't have the almighty Invigoration to fall back on. Even TotH + Hunting Party doesn't look like it will keep up with a rotation that is using 280 mana per 1.5 for any reasonable length of time. In the event that we don't have someone judging wisdom, which sadly is never for me, all we have to fall back on is mana spring totems and maybe an SP in the group.

I was under the impression that Blizzard is very adamant about their anti-downranking position. Healing coefficients were nerfed for downranking a long time ago and I think I remember the same being true for damage spells. I don't see Blizzard leaving hunters the exception to their downranking stance for very long. Since all of our shots have a RAP component, it would be very easy for Blizzard to nerf our downranking just by playing with level vs coefficient.

Tyranna · 07/23/08, 4:41 PM

I just found this post over on the Hunter Beta forums regarding pet threat and tanking.

Think of your pet bar as just shortcuts to your spellbook. It doesn't really matter if an ability is on the bar or not. It can be cast or autocast directly from the spellbook, and unfortunately all new abilities start with autocast defaulted on. This is something we might be able to fix, but in the meantime, peek at your pet's spellbook whenever it gains a level to make sure nothing has changed. Cower can surprise you, because it/si something a lot of players passed on before -- understandably, because even if effective it's not a very fun thing to spend points on, which is why we just give it away now.

We haven't done a major pass on threat generation yet for any of the classes. We realize it was very easy in BC for hunters to pull aggro off of their pets. You can probably tell from some of the pet talents (including the ones that just grant more pet dps) that we want pets to be able to hold their own threat against a hunter. This is especially true when it's just you and Bitey out on your own, but ideally a tanking pet with the proper spec will be an effective offtank for 5-player instances, or even a main tank under some circumstances (say a group quest perhaps).

Ravenfire · 07/23/08, 4:53 PM

Originally Posted by Sean

I personally do not want to ever have to spec into Barrage and Imp Barrage and use Multi-Shot in a rotation again. Imo it should be a skill only used as an AE type ability - not a primary damage rotation shot. And I'm glad they've moved exactly in that direction with the new talents and skills.

MM is looking to be the pvp spec for hunters. Aimed shot got 3 buffs with the new deep MM talents and it is in no way (currently or in beta) a dps rotation shot. Why can't Multi-Shot get some talent love to make it better in pvp as well? Yes I understand to buff it for PvP would likely cause it to be buffed in PvE as well but with all the mechanic changes and new talents I'm not sure it would be used for DPS rotations on anything but fights with an AoE/movement component anyways (and Barrage/Imp Barrage aren't that good at the moment). I'd like to see SOMETHING that would make Barrage/Imp Barrage worth taking under certain conditions (like for PvP). As it stands, I would skip both talents if i had to make a PvE MM raid build.

Edit: And I'd be hard pressed to take both for a PvP MM build aswell