1. Original Post
2. Updates
3. Party Level
4. Raid Level
5. Additional Notes / Related Post (Good read)




1. Original Post
(Please be aware, the nature of this thread has been changed since the original post. This is only left in to allow new readers to make sense of the first few following posts.)
If this has been reviewed somewhere else or is pointless to the group at large, please let me know…I’ll get my post removed if someone else doesn’t first. I didn’t see anything else in this forum regarding it. Sorry for the bumpy start...

Question: What would some ideal group combinations be for WoTLK? This would be along the same lines as the Building Groups That Make Sense but from a WoTLK perspective. For both 10 man and 25 man, with most of the focus on 25 mans.

Many effects, previously group only are now raid wide. This has a huge impact on how groups would be put together. Some examples include...
o Totems
o Unleashed Rage
o Paladin Auras

There has also been talk, though nothing official that I’m aware of beyond a brief blue post, of two talent tree sets. Depending on how this is implemented, it will allow that flexibility for more PvP oriented Specs and PvE specs. If anyone goes into this set of ideas, keep anything limited to one PvE spec to another PvE spec. (IE: Paladin, Resto to Protection)

Anyway, to open it up, what are your thoughts? What group combinations will be more successful stacked in WoTLK? I will try to keep the starting post updated if I can with any additional information mentioned.


2. Updates
I’m not going to mention that you will *need* to bring X classes (Which is how to beat an encounter that doesn't exist yet). Sections 4 titled 'Raid Level' is separate from the original intent, Building Groups. It is there to store a complete list of all the other abilities various classes may donate to a raid for quicker reference.


7/30 - Added in more missing abilities to the 'Raid De-buffs' section. Removed 'Group / Raid' tags attached to abilities. To do: Update the list with the current talent tiers for easier reference. This is low on the list with things changing every couple of days. I've started this in parth, and will do more once I have time.


3. Party Level
The following is a list of Party buffs to consider while making a group, to help establish group only synergies. All raid level buffs, or items that changed to raid level, have been moved to next section of the document to help establish raid synergies. This also removed the clutter of repeating abilities.


Healing: Needs

All: Enchant Weapon: Spellsurge
Restoration Shaman: Mana Tide Totem
Shadow Priest: Vampiric Touch - Tier 10
Leatherworking: Drums of Restoration
Druid, Priest: Atiesh, Greatstaff of the Guardian . This desire is pending any update to the caster staff that may result from the WoTLK expansion. At level 80 this will not be nearly as useful.


Healing: Encounter Specific

Warrior: Commanding Shout (From an excess protection warrior, generally)
Blood Death Knight: Blood Aura
Balance Druid: Moonkin Aura Or Improved Moonkin Form
Protection Warrior: Vigilance 30 Point Prot talent – ‘Group or Single target’


Melee Physical Damage: Needs

No group specific ‘needs’ currently established. Please see raid buff desires below.


Melee Physical Damage: Desires

Shaman: Bloodlust/Heroism
Draenai: Heroic Presence
Enhancement Shaman: Strength of Earth
Feral Druid: Leader of the Pack or Improved Leader of the Pack
Marksmanship Hunter: TrueShot Aura
Beastmaster Hunter: Ferocious Inspiration
Leatherworking: Drums of Battle
Blood Death Knight: Abominations Strength
Survival Hunter: Hunting Party 45 Point Talent
Protection Warrior: Vigilance 30 Point Prot talent – ‘Group or Single target’


Melee Physical Damage: Encounter Specific

Hunter: Aspect of the Pack
Warrior: Commanding Shout
Feral Druid: Leader of the Pack or Improved Leader of the Pack
Frost Death Knight – Acclimation 40 Point Talent
Frost Death Knight – Frost Aura 35 Point Talent

Ranged Physical Damage: Needs

Feral Druid: Leader of the Pack or Improved Leader of the Pack
Shaman: Grace of Air – Removed and replaced with Strength of Earth
Shaman: Strength of Earth


Ranged Physical Damage: Desires

Shaman: Bloodlust/Heroism
Draenai: Heroic Presence
Feral Druid: Leader of the Pack or Improved Leader of the Pack
Leatherworking: Drums of Battle
Unholy Death Knight: Unholy Aura 35 Point Talent
Survival Hunter: Hunting Party 45 Point Talent
Protection Warrior: Vigilance 30 Point Prot talent – ‘Group or Single target’
Beastmaster Hunter: Ferocious Inspiration


Ranged Physical Damage: Encounter Specific

Shadow Priest: Vampiric Embrace or Improved Vampiric Embrace - Tier 5


Ranged Caster Damage: Needs

Shadow Priest: Vampiric Touch


Ranged Caster Damage: Desires

Shaman: Bloodlust/Heroism (Fire Mages in particular at/below 20%)
Draenai: Heroic Presence
Balance Druid: Moonkin Aura Or Improved Moonkin Form
Leatherworking: Drums of Battle
Survival Hunter: Hunting Party 45 Point Talent
Protection Warrior: Vigilance 30 Point Prot talent – ‘Group or Single target
Elemental Shaman: Elemental Oath 35 Point Talent
Beastmaster Hunter: Ferocious Inspiration


Ranged Caster Damage: Encounter Specific

No group specific currently established. Please see raid buff desires below.


Tanking: Needs

Warrior: Commanding Shout


Tanking: Desires

Draenai: Heroic Presence
Shaman: Grace of Air – Removed and replaced with Strength of Earth
Shaman: Strength of Earth
Restoration Druid: Tree of Life Aura or Improved Tree of Life


Tanking: Encounter Specific

Shadow Priest: Vampiric Embrace or Improved Vampiric Embrace



4. Raid Level
This removed the clutter of repeating abilities that are now raid wide. You Obviously as the Beta progresses these will change, and aren't something to consider in 'Group' make-up, but in 'Raid' make-up and what classes/talents will donate to other classes/talents. It is only placed in for possible reference desires. In no way is it designed to say 'Bring this class cus they're cooler lol' or anything akin. Consider it a compilation in progress of those extra things different class may donate to the raid as a whole.

Tank Needs
Resto Shaman: Spirit Link - Two targets in Raid in additional the Tank (according to tooltip)


Tank Desires
Blood Death Knight: Mark of Blood 20 Point Talent
Holy Priest: Guardian Spirit 50 Point Talent
Paladin: Improved Devotion Aura
Protection paladin: Divine Guardian

Raid Buff Desires, Caster
Disc Priest: Divine Spirit or Improved Divine Spirit - Tier 5 (Both)
Disc Priest: Power Infusion - Tier 7
Death Knight: Frozen Rune Weapon (For Frost DPS)
Shaman: Totem of Wrath
Shaman: Wrath of Air
Paladin: Concentration Aura Or
Warlock: Fel Intelligence


Raid Buff Desires, Physical

Blood Death Knight: Hysteria 30 Point Talent
Resto Druid: Replenish - On heal
Retribution Paladin: Retribution Aura and this - Tier 9 and Tier 5

Shaman: Windfury Totem or Enhancement Shamans Improved windfury Totem - Trained or Tier 5
Enhancement Shaman: Unleashed Rage - Tier 9
Holy Paladin Improved Concentration Aura - Tier 4
Warrior: Battle Shout – Raid (Provided here)
Warlock: Blood Pact (Talented Pref)(From an Affliction Warlock if available) – Raid (Anyone have source?)

Enemy De-buff Desires Caster damage to target

Demo Warlock: Demonic Pact
Shadow Priest: Misery - Tier 8
Shadow Priest: Shadow Weaving - Tier 4
Death Knight: Icy Touch
Balance Druid: Earth and Moon
Balance Druid: Improved Faerie fire
Mage: Improved Scorch - Tier 4 Fire
Mage: Focus Magic - Trained

Enemy De-buff Desires Physical damage to target
Unholy Death Knight: Ebon Plaguebringer 35 Point Talent
Balance Druid: Improved Faerie fire
Hunter: Expose Weakness
Hunter: Point of No escape
Affliction Warlock: Malediction
Arms Warrior: Blood Frenzy
Warrior: Trauma


Enemy De-buff Desires Physical from mob to raid
Unholy Death Knight: Crypt Fever 35 Point Talent
Feral Druid: Infected Wounds (Most likely effective on Trash only)
Warlock - Frialty

Healing Desired Effects
Retribution Paladin: Divine Storm -
Holy Priest: Circle of Healing – AoE - Tier 9
Disc Priest: Grace - Tier 9


Raid Encounter Specific Desires
Paladin/Shaman: Resist Aura/Totem – Raid (Resistance Totems link aren't finalized from the looks...the spell levels stop at 70)
Please note, ranges on Totems and Auras will result in needing more then one person with an aura or Totem up. This will most likely end up being done by position (IE, You go stand with the Melee, you go stand with the Ranged)
Mage: Dampen Magic or Amplify Magic or improved
Paladin: The Art of War
Warlock: Consume Shadows (Voidwalker). (Pending encounter design)
Druid: Glyph of Hurricane - AoE

5. Additional Notes / Related
I grabbed the original list created by Anias from the thread in the Think Tank and added in current skills and changes to the list. Since some of these may still be desired by the raid as a whole, they’ve been left in.

Please also review this link for a good list of the various abilities and how they may link together between characters and groups. - Thanks Caligula!

It's an effect that can only occur every 8 secs though, so it's not as overpowering as it may seem. I'm not sure what I'd do with 4 extra rage on my warrior every 8 seconds... if I'm not already at 100 rage because the mob hit me for 20k.

2% mana is probably the nicer one, since you can be fairly certain it's useful, seeing as how many classes usually spend most of their time sub-100% mana.

Some hunter pet abilities may fall in specific categories.

Roar of Fortitude.. 10% hp and 10% dodge for 40 secs (5min CD).. tank group I guess (or melee dps).
Call of the Wild, 5% Attack Power for 20 secs(5min CD).. melee dps since the range is quite limited.

With their long CDs though, they are less useful than they might be.

There are many other new debuffs that are almost neccesarry:
- Demonology Warlock with Demonic Pact (10% increased spellpower for everyone attacking the mob)
- Death Knight's Frozen Rune Weapon (10% increased frostdamage, but depends heavily on how Frostfirebolt from Mages works)
- Moonkin's improved Feary Fire (3%hit for everyone) plus their Improved Moonkin Form (not only good in Dps Caster groups, but also in Healer groups if heavy burst healing is needed)
- Mage's Winters Grasp (2%hit plus senergy with Death Knight)
- Elemental Shaman's Elemental Oath and Totem of Wrath (3%hit + 3%crit)
- Paladin's Swift Retribution (3% increased casting and attacking speed)

I'm working on putting together a list of buffs, and if they're raid wide or party wide, so that it's easier to see what you may want or may not want.

I'll try to get links edited in to the talents / abilities on WoWhead as well.

Similar threads to this have been done before, they have been removed: Best raid composition for 10 man progression was the most recent one.

Perhaps if this thread listed changes to party and raid buffs for WotLK it might serve some purpose, but as a general "what's best" I expect it will soon be gone.

Some of the party buffs from the DK:

Abominations Strength: 10% STR Boost to party memebers within 45 yards, 10sec length, triggerable by Obliterate and Blood Strike.
Blood Aura: Any healing the DK recieved from their own abilities is also recieved by the party.
Frost Aura: 6% health boost to party members.
Unholy Aura: 10% speed increase, stacks with other increases.

I'm guessing from the last reply on there that it was removed as the answer obviously varies...

If Kaubel or another moderator removes this one that's fine. I forgot to check the Dung Heap, and I'll have to keep that in mind before I try to put anything together in the future.

Edit: I was trying to place the focus on an updated version of the 'Building Groups That Make Sense' from the WoTLK perspective if that helps...I'm still trying to edit the main post to get at that angle.

While I concur with Lamaros that this thread is probably unsuited to these forums for a number of practical reasons, I do think it is worth pointing out that any holistic discussion of raid make-up must first resolve the fundamental balance issue between healers, tanks, and DPS. Assuming that raid diversity is a net gain, we have 2.5 slots per class. Unfortunately, we have 5 healing trees amongst 4 classes, and 4-6 more tanking trees amongst 4 classes. The ratios do not match up with current encounter requirements (6-9 healers, 1-4 tanks), resolving those disparities will be paramount when it comes to raid composition.

Edit: If we strictly want to look at group composition, changes to UR, Battleshout, Auras, and Totems open up a ton of flexibility when it comes to group make-up. Obviously some mechanics still drive group composition, but I suspect that the new flexibility will allow for group composition to be more encounter-driven.

Testing done by rogues in the beta suggests that all relevant caster totems [except for Mana Spring] are applied to the raid. Unfortunately, Strength of Earth being a raid buff was deemed unnecessary, which more or less fucks everyone else. I still can't wrap my head around any reasoning that isn't just stupidity.

For mages:

Arcane brings, essentially, nothng (tallented amplify magic for the tank - very minor).

Fire brings +15% fire damage for the entire raid.

Frost brings +10% frost crit chance for the raid, and a proc that makes the target considered frozen and players attacking him have +2% hit. The +hit can be ignored for most classes since the uptime on that isn't great (still handy for pets and DW classes).

The best Elemental specs provide both the fire and frost buffs above. Due to the nature of winter's grasp in its current state, you have a potent exponential effect from stacking more Frost or elemental mages (who can proc WG and then get +50% crit chance on shatter). With 3-4 mages with this tallent you start to see over 70% uptime and a rather excesive crit chance for all mages (This will probably be nerfed fairly early in WotLK as the theorycraft on the tallent shows the DPS to be sickening).

Thats what mages bring - what they work best from (group only):

Moonking aura
Elemental oath (highest crit chance + highest crit damage = best placed class to take advantage of this aura)
Hunting Party

For a rogue, at least, it's not that impressive. I mean, I'd take it, to be sure, but it's, for instance, a smaller DPS boost than that given by a Feral Druid, and about the same a Ferocious Inspiration from a BM hunter. So while rogues certainly won't complain about being in a Survival Hunter group, there's no particularly urgent need for them to be there, either. They definitely want a feral druid, but past that there's no clear favorite amongst the other group buffs.

All of those are party-only buffs, also mana spring and healing stream are party only.