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Building Groups in WoTLK
1. Original Post
2. Updates 3. Party Level 4. Raid Level 5. Additional Notes / Related Post (Good read) 1. Original Post (Please be aware, the nature of this thread has been changed since the original post. This is only left in to allow new readers to make sense of the first few following posts.) If this has been reviewed somewhere else or is pointless to the group at large, please let me know…I’ll get my post removed if someone else doesn’t first. I didn’t see anything else in this forum regarding it. Sorry for the bumpy start... Question: What would some ideal group combinations be for WoTLK? This would be along the same lines as the Building Groups That Make Sense but from a WoTLK perspective. For both 10 man and 25 man, with most of the focus on 25 mans. Many effects, previously group only are now raid wide. This has a huge impact on how groups would be put together. Some examples include... o Totems o Unleashed Rage o Paladin Auras There has also been talk, though nothing official that I’m aware of beyond a brief blue post, of two talent tree sets. Depending on how this is implemented, it will allow that flexibility for more PvP oriented Specs and PvE specs. If anyone goes into this set of ideas, keep anything limited to one PvE spec to another PvE spec. (IE: Paladin, Resto to Protection) Anyway, to open it up, what are your thoughts? What group combinations will be more successful stacked in WoTLK? I will try to keep the starting post updated if I can with any additional information mentioned. 2. Updates I’m not going to mention that you will *need* to bring X classes (Which is how to beat an encounter that doesn't exist yet). Sections 4 titled 'Raid Level' is separate from the original intent, Building Groups. It is there to store a complete list of all the other abilities various classes may donate to a raid for quicker reference. 7/30 - Added in more missing abilities to the 'Raid De-buffs' section. Removed 'Group / Raid' tags attached to abilities. To do: Update the list with the current talent tiers for easier reference. This is low on the list with things changing every couple of days. I've started this in parth, and will do more once I have time. 3. Party Level The following is a list of Party buffs to consider while making a group, to help establish group only synergies. All raid level buffs, or items that changed to raid level, have been moved to next section of the document to help establish raid synergies. This also removed the clutter of repeating abilities. Healing: Needs All: Enchant Weapon: Spellsurge Restoration Shaman: Mana Tide Totem Shadow Priest: Vampiric Touch - Tier 10 Leatherworking: Drums of Restoration Druid, Priest: Atiesh, Greatstaff of the Guardian . This desire is pending any update to the caster staff that may result from the WoTLK expansion. At level 80 this will not be nearly as useful. Healing: Encounter Specific Warrior: Commanding Shout (From an excess protection warrior, generally) Blood Death Knight: Blood Aura Balance Druid: Moonkin Aura Or Improved Moonkin Form Protection Warrior: Vigilance 30 Point Prot talent – ‘Group or Single target’ Melee Physical Damage: Needs No group specific ‘needs’ currently established. Please see raid buff desires below. Melee Physical Damage: Desires Shaman: Bloodlust/Heroism Draenai: Heroic Presence Enhancement Shaman: Strength of Earth Feral Druid: Leader of the Pack or Improved Leader of the Pack Marksmanship Hunter: TrueShot Aura Beastmaster Hunter: Ferocious Inspiration Leatherworking: Drums of Battle Blood Death Knight: Abominations Strength Survival Hunter: Hunting Party 45 Point Talent Protection Warrior: Vigilance 30 Point Prot talent – ‘Group or Single target’ Melee Physical Damage: Encounter Specific Hunter: Aspect of the Pack Warrior: Commanding Shout Feral Druid: Leader of the Pack or Improved Leader of the Pack Frost Death Knight – Acclimation 40 Point Talent Frost Death Knight – Frost Aura 35 Point Talent Ranged Physical Damage: Needs Feral Druid: Leader of the Pack or Improved Leader of the Pack Shaman: Grace of Air – Removed and replaced with Strength of Earth Shaman: Strength of Earth Ranged Physical Damage: Desires Shaman: Bloodlust/Heroism Draenai: Heroic Presence Feral Druid: Leader of the Pack or Improved Leader of the Pack Leatherworking: Drums of Battle Unholy Death Knight: Unholy Aura 35 Point Talent Survival Hunter: Hunting Party 45 Point Talent Protection Warrior: Vigilance 30 Point Prot talent – ‘Group or Single target’ Beastmaster Hunter: Ferocious Inspiration Ranged Physical Damage: Encounter Specific Shadow Priest: Vampiric Embrace or Improved Vampiric Embrace - Tier 5 Ranged Caster Damage: Needs Shadow Priest: Vampiric Touch Ranged Caster Damage: Desires Shaman: Bloodlust/Heroism (Fire Mages in particular at/below 20%) Draenai: Heroic Presence Balance Druid: Moonkin Aura Or Improved Moonkin Form Leatherworking: Drums of Battle Survival Hunter: Hunting Party 45 Point Talent Protection Warrior: Vigilance 30 Point Prot talent – ‘Group or Single target Elemental Shaman: Elemental Oath 35 Point Talent Beastmaster Hunter: Ferocious Inspiration Ranged Caster Damage: Encounter Specific No group specific currently established. Please see raid buff desires below. Tanking: Needs Warrior: Commanding Shout Tanking: Desires Draenai: Heroic Presence Shaman: Grace of Air – Removed and replaced with Strength of Earth Shaman: Strength of Earth Restoration Druid: Tree of Life Aura or Improved Tree of Life Tanking: Encounter Specific Shadow Priest: Vampiric Embrace or Improved Vampiric Embrace 4. Raid Level This removed the clutter of repeating abilities that are now raid wide. You Obviously as the Beta progresses these will change, and aren't something to consider in 'Group' make-up, but in 'Raid' make-up and what classes/talents will donate to other classes/talents. It is only placed in for possible reference desires. In no way is it designed to say 'Bring this class cus they're cooler lol' or anything akin. Consider it a compilation in progress of those extra things different class may donate to the raid as a whole. Tank Needs Resto Shaman: Spirit Link - Two targets in Raid in additional the Tank (according to tooltip) Tank Desires Blood Death Knight: Mark of Blood 20 Point Talent Holy Priest: Guardian Spirit 50 Point Talent Paladin: Improved Devotion Aura Protection paladin: Divine Guardian Raid Buff Desires, Caster Disc Priest: Divine Spirit or Improved Divine Spirit - Tier 5 (Both) Disc Priest: Power Infusion - Tier 7 Death Knight: Frozen Rune Weapon (For Frost DPS) Shaman: Totem of Wrath Shaman: Wrath of Air Paladin: Concentration Aura Or Warlock: Fel Intelligence Raid Buff Desires, Physical Blood Death Knight: Hysteria 30 Point Talent Resto Druid: Replenish - On heal Retribution Paladin: Retribution Aura and this - Tier 9 and Tier 5 Shaman: Windfury Totem or Enhancement Shamans Improved windfury Totem - Trained or Tier 5 Enhancement Shaman: Unleashed Rage - Tier 9 Holy Paladin Improved Concentration Aura - Tier 4 Warrior: Battle Shout – Raid (Provided here) Warlock: Blood Pact (Talented Pref)(From an Affliction Warlock if available) – Raid (Anyone have source?) Enemy De-buff Desires Caster damage to target Demo Warlock: Demonic Pact Shadow Priest: Misery - Tier 8 Shadow Priest: Shadow Weaving - Tier 4 Death Knight: Icy Touch Balance Druid: Earth and Moon Balance Druid: Improved Faerie fire Mage: Improved Scorch - Tier 4 Fire Mage: Focus Magic - Trained Enemy De-buff Desires Physical damage to target Unholy Death Knight: Ebon Plaguebringer 35 Point Talent Balance Druid: Improved Faerie fire Hunter: Expose Weakness Hunter: Point of No escape Affliction Warlock: Malediction Arms Warrior: Blood Frenzy Warrior: Trauma Enemy De-buff Desires Physical from mob to raid Unholy Death Knight: Crypt Fever 35 Point Talent Feral Druid: Infected Wounds (Most likely effective on Trash only) Warlock - Frialty Healing Desired Effects Retribution Paladin: Divine Storm - Holy Priest: Circle of Healing – AoE - Tier 9 Disc Priest: Grace - Tier 9 Raid Encounter Specific Desires Paladin/Shaman: Resist Aura/Totem – Raid (Resistance Totems link aren't finalized from the looks...the spell levels stop at 70) Please note, ranges on Totems and Auras will result in needing more then one person with an aura or Totem up. This will most likely end up being done by position (IE, You go stand with the Melee, you go stand with the Ranged) Mage: Dampen Magic or Amplify Magic or improved Paladin: The Art of War Warlock: Consume Shadows (Voidwalker). (Pending encounter design) Druid: Glyph of Hurricane - AoE 5. Additional Notes / Related I grabbed the original list created by Anias from the thread in the Think Tank and added in current skills and changes to the list. Since some of these may still be desired by the raid as a whole, they’ve been left in. Please also review this link for a good list of the various abilities and how they may link together between characters and groups. - Thanks Caligula! |
Everybody's going to want to be in the survival hunter's group.
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2% mana is probably the nicer one, since you can be fairly certain it's useful, seeing as how many classes usually spend most of their time sub-100% mana. Some hunter pet abilities may fall in specific categories. Roar of Fortitude.. 10% hp and 10% dodge for 40 secs (5min CD).. tank group I guess (or melee dps). Call of the Wild, 5% Attack Power for 20 secs(5min CD).. melee dps since the range is quite limited. With their long CDs though, they are less useful than they might be. |
There are many other new debuffs that are almost neccesarry:
- Demonology Warlock with Demonic Pact (10% increased spellpower for everyone attacking the mob) - Death Knight's Frozen Rune Weapon (10% increased frostdamage, but depends heavily on how Frostfirebolt from Mages works) - Moonkin's improved Feary Fire (3%hit for everyone) plus their Improved Moonkin Form (not only good in Dps Caster groups, but also in Healer groups if heavy burst healing is needed) - Mage's Winters Grasp (2%hit plus senergy with Death Knight) - Elemental Shaman's Elemental Oath and Totem of Wrath (3%hit + 3%crit) - Paladin's Swift Retribution (3% increased casting and attacking speed) |
Working on it...
I'm working on putting together a list of buffs, and if they're raid wide or party wide, so that it's easier to see what you may want or may not want.
I'll try to get links edited in to the talents / abilities on WoWhead as well. |
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DPS warriors would certainly not complain about extra rage, nor would rogues or pretty much anyone with a mana bar. I guess SI was being a little too general saying "everyone" since protection warriors, and maybe tanking feral druids are exceptions =| |
Similar threads to this have been done before, they have been removed: http://elitistjerks.com/f23/t27266-b...n_progression/ was the most recent one.
Perhaps if this thread listed changes to party and raid buffs for WotLK it might serve some purpose, but as a general "what's best" I expect it will soon be gone. Some of the party buffs from the DK: Abominations Strength: 10% STR Boost to party memebers within 45 yards, 10sec length, triggerable by Obliterate and Blood Strike. Blood Aura: Any healing the DK recieved from their own abilities is also recieved by the party. Frost Aura: 6% health boost to party members. Unholy Aura: 10% speed increase, stacks with other increases. |
I'm guessing from the last reply on there that it was removed as the answer obviously varies...
If Kaubel or another moderator removes this one that's fine. I forgot to check the Dung Heap, and I'll have to keep that in mind before I try to put anything together in the future. Edit: I was trying to place the focus on an updated version of the 'Building Groups That Make Sense' from the WoTLK perspective if that helps...I'm still trying to edit the main post to get at that angle. |
While I concur with Lamaros that this thread is probably unsuited to these forums for a number of practical reasons, I do think it is worth pointing out that any holistic discussion of raid make-up must first resolve the fundamental balance issue between healers, tanks, and DPS. Assuming that raid diversity is a net gain, we have 2.5 slots per class. Unfortunately, we have 5 healing trees amongst 4 classes, and 4-6 more tanking trees amongst 4 classes. The ratios do not match up with current encounter requirements (6-9 healers, 1-4 tanks), resolving those disparities will be paramount when it comes to raid composition.
Edit: If we strictly want to look at group composition, changes to UR, Battleshout, Auras, and Totems open up a ton of flexibility when it comes to group make-up. Obviously some mechanics still drive group composition, but I suspect that the new flexibility will allow for group composition to be more encounter-driven. |
At least Battle Shout has been explicitly mentioned at WWI as being raid wide:
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For mages:
Arcane brings, essentially, nothng (tallented amplify magic for the tank - very minor). Fire brings +15% fire damage for the entire raid. Frost brings +10% frost crit chance for the raid, and a proc that makes the target considered frozen and players attacking him have +2% hit. The +hit can be ignored for most classes since the uptime on that isn't great (still handy for pets and DW classes). The best Elemental specs provide both the fire and frost buffs above. Due to the nature of winter's grasp in its current state, you have a potent exponential effect from stacking more Frost or elemental mages (who can proc WG and then get +50% crit chance on shatter). With 3-4 mages with this tallent you start to see over 70% uptime and a rather excesive crit chance for all mages (This will probably be nerfed fairly early in WotLK as the theorycraft on the tallent shows the DPS to be sickening). Thats what mages bring - what they work best from (group only): Moonking aura Elemental oath (highest crit chance + highest crit damage = best placed class to take advantage of this aura) Hunting Party |
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It seems like Feral Druids, Moonkin, Elemental Shamans, Shadow Priests, Hunters, and possibly DK's will drive group formation in WotLK. That's not very far removed from TBC, with the big change being that Resto Shamans, Enhancement Shaman, and Arms/Fury Warriors are no longer pivotal in developing group synergies.
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