Combat Ratings at level 80 - Page 13

Selmarix · 10/08/08, 5:04 AM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Do we know the value of C for misses, specifically for druids?

Unfortunately that requires a lot of testing that is difficult to do (because of no direct way to retrieve miss values after DR).

So someone would have to get an equal level mob to attack a lot of times (without dieing) and then the same for different amounts of defense equipment.

That is far more time consuming and difficult than the parry and dodge data collected in this thread which is probably the reason why no one has done it yet.

Jerry · 10/08/08, 6:47 AM

Whatever the case, it won't affect your avoidance much. With crush removed from the combat table, and crit reduction not on diminishing returns, the only effect of whether or not Miss has diminishing returns will be in a fraction of percent of chance to get hit or not. With DR on dodge as it is right now, it's impossible to get full avoidance.

If the innate miss chance of 5% is considered outside of DR (as are other base values), and if miss from defense use a diminishing return function similar to the one we know about, you will benefit from it quite a bit. The DR function is designed so that low values (before 5-10%) becomes bigger after DR, and only values above this threshold are diminished.

To get +10% Miss before DR, you must have a defense bonus of 250, or 1230 defense rating bonus. It's a lot of defense. You only need 125 defense bonus to get crit immune (50 for a druid) plus 15 to compensate for boss level, and that amount as already been reported as quite difficult to achieve with blue gear.

So yes, I'm speculating, but you can be certain that the difference between miss using DR or not has a really small effect on your avoidance, and it's probably a positive effect if there is one.

Prinsesa · 10/08/08, 7:47 AM

Originally Posted by Jerry

Whatever the case, it won't affect your avoidance much. With crush removed from the combat table, and crit reduction not on diminishing returns, the only effect of whether or not Miss has diminishing returns will be in a fraction of percent of chance to get hit or not. With DR on dodge as it is right now, it's impossible to get full avoidance.

Playing around with my Paladin's gear, I found that it was still possible to get my total miss/dodge/parry/block to ~115% with Holy Shield up.

Of course, this isn't the same as the Rogue or Druid feats, since partial blocks still deal damage, but it was interesting to see that unhittable is now a Paladin-specific property.

Jerry · 10/08/08, 8:57 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Playing around with my Paladin's gear, I found that it was still possible to get my total miss/dodge/parry/block to ~115% with Holy Shield up.

Of course, this isn't the same as the Rogue or Druid feats, since partial blocks still deal damage, but it was interesting to see that unhittable is now a Paladin-specific property.

I suspect Warrior also achieve this easily (although at very specific times) with Shield Block. But block is not avoidance (and thus not subject to DR). I also think that Shear-like abilities, with strange combat tables, are things of the past now, so removing hit from the combat table won't be necessary anymore.

spookz · 10/08/08, 9:40 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Armor Penetration Rating is applied AFTER debuffs, which still reduces armor by a set amount.

Consider a boss with 7,600 armor and a level 70 player with 700 Armor Penetration in 2.3

After level 67 Sunder Armor (5 stacks of -520 armor each, for a total of -2600), the boss now has 5000 armor.

With 700 Armor Penetration, the boss would now only have 4300 armor.

Once 3.0 hits, 700 ArPen will be converted into 100 ArPen Rating.

100 ArPen Rating is worth 13.5% armor penetration at level 70, so from 5000 armor, the boss would now only have 4324 armor.

You are missing the other -Armor debuffs like CoR and FF.

Boss Base Armor: 7685 (normal bosses)
5xSA = 2600, FF = 610, CoR =800

7685 - 2600 - 610 - 800 = 3675 Bossarmor after Debuffs.

For a Player with 700ArP the result is 2975 or 19% reduction. (2.4)

when 3.0 hits:

FF/CoR no longer stack and both reduce armor by 610

7685 - 2600 - 610 = 4475 after Debuffs

700ArP=100ArpRating ~ 13,5% ~ 604 reduction = 3871 Bossarmor which is +996 (or +30%!)Armor compared to 2.4

So first the remove stacking of FF and Cor which results in +800 Armor and second they nerf ArP by Convertig it to Rating and % based reduction.

The numbers indicate that they converted ArP from a very good Raiding stat to the worst of all stats (at least for Rogues)

Doggett · 10/08/08, 4:08 PM

Has the defence rating conversion changed on beta recently? Wowhead tooltips seem to be giving about 5.59 rating to 1 defence skill at level 80 now; is this accurate?

Whitetooth · 10/08/08, 4:16 PM

Originally Posted by Doggett

Has the defence rating conversion changed on beta recently? Wowhead tooltips seem to be giving about 5.59 rating to 1 defence skill at level 80 now; is this accurate?

Just did a quick check on build 9061 files, my numbers in the first post are still correct.

Muphrid · 10/09/08, 12:41 AM

Okay, after some discussion spurred on by the beta forums, I've figured out a series expansion for average time-to-live as a function of pre-diminshed avoidance.

$T(a_u) = \frac{1}{1-a_0} + \frac{1}{(1-a_0)^2} \frac{a_u}{k} + \sum_{n=2}^{\infty} \left ( \frac{1}{1-a_0} \right ) ^{n+1} \left ( \frac{-(1-a_0-a_c)}{a_c} \right) ^{n-1} \left ( \frac{a_u}{k} \right )^n$

Where a_u is pre-DR avoidance (easy to convert to rating or agi), a_0 is base avoidance of that type (non-zero for dodge but 0 for parry, usually), a_c is the cap for that stat (in decimal, not percentage form--Whitetooth has given percentages), and k is Whitetooth's K.

From this, I can refine my scaling analysis from earlier, which I believe was faulty. The overall scaling trend hinges on the cap. We can rewrite the summation (which carries the second- and higher-order terms) as so:

$T(a_u) = O(a_u) + \sum_{n=2}^{\infty} \left ( \frac{1}{1-a_0} \right ) ^{n+1} \left (1 - \frac{1-a_0}{a_c} \right) ^{n-1} \left ( \frac{a_u}{k} \right )^n$

In particular, pay attention to this factor:

$\left (1 - \frac{1-a_0}{a_c} \right) ^{n-1}$

If a_c = 1-a_0, then the whole summation drops out, and we have pure linear scaling. If a_c > 1-a_0, then the term is always positive, and the scaling is faster than linear (in fact, after playing with the cap some, I think this can be locally faster than exponential given a high enough cap). Conversely, if a_c < 1-a_0 (which is usually the case), the scaling is slower than linear.

It may help in general to rewrite the summation as so:

$T(a_u) = \frac{1}{1-a_0} + \frac{1}{(1-a_0)^2} \frac{a_u}{k} - \frac{a_c}{(1-a_0) (1-a_0-a_c)} \sum_{n=2}^{\infty} \left ( \frac{-(1-a_0-a_c) a_u}{(1-a_0) a_c k} \right )^n$

Scrufola · 10/09/08, 5:22 AM

Is there anything known about the mana regen of warlock pets? This post indicates, that the Imp regenerates mana independent off spirit.

Does someone have a macro which could output the required information to measure that? (Something like the avoidance macro).

Whitetooth · 10/09/08, 11:05 AM

I used a base TTL of 1. For reference, 10 Armor gives 0.06565 TTL.

Agi calculations include armor and dodge.
Defense calculations include dodge, parry, -crit and -miss.

Melthu · 10/09/08, 1:02 PM

Muphrid, I'm having trouble using your formula. Based on your description if we use a level 80 druid as an example I would guess k = 0.9720 and a_c = 1.16890707, right? My question is what do we use for a_0 and a_u? Let's say my equipment has 40 total dodge rating on it for ~1% dodge, pre-DR. Do I use 1, 1.01, or 0.01 for a_u?

Nymph' · 10/09/08, 1:08 PM

Actually I think it remains possible to have full avoidance for a rogue in WOTLK, using the method I described a few monthes ago in the rogue avoidance tanking topic (adaptable and very complicated cycle of mitigation trinket/abilities/proc). However, with diminishing returns, I guess it will be only with outstanding gear, and there will be way fewer aggro generated. And it actually still depends of level 80 potions, etc. We'll see in two or three monthes.

ranma · 10/09/08, 9:12 PM

Originally Posted by Whitetooth

I used a base TTL of 1. For reference, 10 Armor gives 0.06565 TTL.

Agi calculations include armor and dodge.
Defense calculations include dodge, parry, -crit and -miss.

I am surprised that other than defense rating, other avoidance stats have negative effects on TTL.

What did I miss here?

Edit: I understand it now, but can I delete my post?

Embher · 10/11/08, 3:09 AM

Here I simplified these equations for people to estimate the increase in dodge % from changing gear, which is probably one of the most common goals/ problems to solve with these stats.

Maintankadin :: View topic - diminishing returns on parry to?

According to his examples, x and x' are % values and they are % contributions from GEAR ONLY.

............

Simplifying the equations for finding the increased % when changing gear:

Undiminished Dodge %(does not include base stats)=
[(Defense rating with original gear)*defense modifier+(Dodge rating with original gear)/dodge modifier]+
[Increased Defense rating from the gear change*defense modifier+Increased Dodge rating from the gear change/dodge modifier]

You cannot take the character sheet %-base dodge % because it really does show effects of diminishing returns.

where dodge modifier converts to dodge rating to dodge%, e.g,. 18.9 at 70
where defense modifier converts to defendse rating to dodge%, e.g,. 0.04 at 70

x'd= 1
__________________

(0.011347 + 0.9560/Undiminished Dodge%)

dr_AllCOM3 · 10/11/08, 11:06 AM

What is the rage conversion value for level 80? That's something I'd really like to know

.
Maybe someone could ask in the US forum, since the Dev's don't reply in the EU forum.

• landsoul · 10/12/08, 7:47 AM

C=0.0091107836*(Clevel)^(2)+3.225598133*(Clevel)+4.2652911
@80, C=320.62somethingsomething

Nymph' · 10/15/08, 5:31 PM

Sorry about this, but I don't really understand the formulas for DR. (too complicated for me ^^' ) Did someone design a spreadsheet that could actually give me automatically the result avoidance if I enter the different variables ?

( By the way, TTL stands for... ? )

Thanks !

Whitetooth · 10/20/08, 4:53 AM

Originally Posted by Nymph'

Sorry about this, but I don't really understand the formulas for DR. (too complicated for me ^^' ) Did someone design a spreadsheet that could actually give me automatically the result avoidance if I enter the different variables ?

( By the way, TTL stands for... ? )

Thanks !

TimeToLive = Health / (1 - DamageReduction)

Its also known as TankPoints

Nymph' · 10/20/08, 5:38 AM

Okay, so basically Agility gives more TTL than any other stat except Defense for Pal/DK ? Isn't that a little strange ? x_o

Plus, why is the parry so degressive ?

Whitetooth · 10/21/08, 5:30 AM

Originally Posted by Nymph'

Okay, so basically Agility gives more TTL than any other stat except Defense for Pal/DK ? Isn't that a little strange ? x_o

Plus, why is the parry so degressive ?

Parry has a lower cap

jowyattreides · 10/26/08, 10:19 AM

According to Ghostcrawlers post on the beta forums from a month ago, Deathknights should now have
a chance to dodge of 5% when naked. If this has already been implemented I think the base dodge
formula on the front page of this thread isn't correct anymore. It would be nice if someone who has
access to the beta could test this.

link to Ghostcrawlers post: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Upcoming Death Knight tanking changes

Whitetooth · 10/26/08, 3:31 PM

Originally Posted by jowyattreides

According to Ghostcrawlers post on the beta forums from a month ago, Deathknights should now have
a chance to dodge of 5% when naked. If this has already been implemented I think the base dodge
formula on the front page of this thread isn't correct anymore. It would be nice if someone who has
access to the beta could test this.

link to Ghostcrawlers post: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Upcoming Death Knight tanking changes

Comfirmed, Death Knight BaseDodge changed from 0.758% to 3.4636%.

First post updated.

pope master · 10/27/08, 5:50 AM

Hi,

I got tired of guessing how I should gem with all my new Sunwell loots, so I created a little spreadsheet to tell me. Basically, I wanted something to tell me if I should cut a parry gem or a dodge gem for a red socket that I decided I wanted to use on avoidance (or decide not to if the avoidance gains weren't worth it). I believe that I'm using the correct equations for 70, but if someone could give it a look over and ensure I'm not being stupid that would be grand.

For those curious about the results, I'm a T6/mid-Sunwell prot pally with a character sheet that reads 31% dodge and 16.5% parry without the 5 gems that I wanted to throw at avoidance. Gemming full dodge versus full parry only resulted in a .2% avoidance deficit (parry was worse). Throwing all 50 points at dodge also only resulted in a 1.76% improvement in avoidance. Prior to 3.0 that would have been 2.62%, so there is a fairly significant drop off.

Roywyn · 11/07/08, 4:59 AM

Has the been any confirmation on Level 80 Boss Armour after the change?

It used to be 10.900 AC. Does the 10% change mean that boss armour now is 11.990 AC?
Or did they increase total mitigation or total decrease damage taken by 10% or something?

• landsoul · 11/07/08, 12:28 PM

My guess is they made it 12000. Of course, our tests were done on the Dalaran Heroic dummy. Like in BC, boss X might have more or less armor than boss Y, we just really don't know until the whole world starts getting data from the various bosses.