acceleratum

what about defense vs resilience for crit immunity?

As a warrior tank im interested in this topic, does defense have a steep diminishing return? I find usefull to add some resilience in order to reach crit immunity without wasting every single gem/enchant into defense.
Im lookin to build a good allround tanking gear but the defense cap leaves alot of good options out, with some resilience in it, I believe a better overall gear could be achieved.

Does anyone got numbers on this two stats related to crit immunity? I couldnt find it around the forums.

 

Rallik

I've been working at figuring out how arpen/debuffs stack today and have a theory for a formula:



where:
A = the half armor value at 80, 15232.5
B = base boss armor, 10643(the value I found from testing)
x = sum of arpen buffs(mace spec/battle stance/gear arpen)
y = product of arpen debuffs(sunder/ff) (1-.95*.8)

Currently arpen buffs are not working as specified, and are all .81 of what they should be(note: not .8 like you'd expect from 1/1.25). I.e. Battle stance = 8.1% reduction, mace spec = 12.15%, and 20% arpen from gear(per the tooltip) = 16.2%. The nice thing is that they do stack together additively. So, if you had Mace spec/Bstance/20% arpen, x would be .81*(.15+.1+.2) = .3645

Sunder/FF on the other hand stack together multiplicatively, so 24% reduction when both are applied.

The debuffs and buffs together however do not interact as I'd expect at all. The buffs are summed together, but then do not stack multiplicatively or additively with the debuffs, but somewhere in between. After fiddling with the numbers for a long time and trying to discover a relationship, the ratio in between seems to be A/(A+B), the armor reduction for a boss at full armor oddly enough.

To hopefully be a little more clear.. if you had 10% arpen from gear(ignore the .81 bug for now) and Sunder/FF up.

expected armor reduction from arpen alone if fully multiplicative = .1 * (10643*(1-.24)) = 808.868
expected armor reduction from arpen alone if fully additive = .1*10643 = 1064.3

Actual armor reduction from arpen = 808.868 + (A/(A+B))(1064.3-808.868) ~= 959.24, which puts the final armor value at 10643*.76-959.24 ~= 7129.44, which becomes (15232.5/(7129.44+15232.5)) = ~= 68.11% damage, which is the result you'll get if you plug all those numbers into the equation listed above.

Does this check out with everyone else's testing?

 

Melthu

Your equation matches hellord's data within 0.1% of his observed armor reduction, which can probably be chalked up to rounding. If you came up with it using your own data I'd say it's pretty likely that this is the equation being used in-game.

 

Rallik

Yep, it was derived from my own data, and matched every combination I tested, good to hear it works for others' as well.

 

Mijae

First, great work.

However, you state the 0.81 modifier is not equal to 1/1.25. Do your results show that the 1.25 multiplier is in fact applying to armor pen rating? Is it already present in the tooltip value? Could there be some combination of this new multiplier affecting rating, but not talents that makes it appear not exactly 0.8?

If no ArP buffs other than rating:

x = rating / 15.39529991 * 1.25 ? * 0.81 ?

Feral DruidStats spreadsheet
v3.2.0.0.xls - updated 8/4/2009

 

Exemplar

What I'm getting is that ArmPen is still "broken".

Either it's effectively unchanged, tooltip buffed by 1.25 but real-tests providing 80% of tooltip, or effectively (* 1.25 / 1.25). Net approx unchanged from live. Or instead of being 1.25 times as good (multiplied by 1.25) it's .8 times as good (divided by 1.25). In short, ArmPen is worse on PTR than on live. I'm personally not clear on which situation just from reading.

If either is indeed the case, is there a bug thread opened on the topic in addition to any in-game PTR reporting which may have occurred? Neither is matching what Blizzard has advertised or seems to intend.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

Rallik

The tooltip value alone is showing the 25% increase in arpen. If you had 5% arpen from rating on live, you'd see 6.25%(in the tooltip) on the PTR. 81% of that tooltip value is what is actually being applied however. So, if you had 5% arpen on live, you'd have 5*1.25*.81 = 5.0625% on the PTR(rating / 15.39529991 * 1.25 * 0.81). It seems very strange that it is not precisely 80% which would be expected, but I double-checked with battle stance/mace spec/gear in various combinations many times, and always saw the same 81% reduction. So yeah, it's still broken, and the very odd interaction between arpen buffs and debuffs seems like a malfunctioning mechanic that can't be explained well either. Hopefully the build going up soon finally addresses this bug.

 

Etaiu

The other requirement for such a test is to have so much avoidance that you are never struck by normal hits, ever. It's not an issue of the amount of data gathered.

 

nightcrowler

I'm not sure that ArPen is bugged. Actually we are assuming that armor penetration doesn't suffer diminushing return but, if it's not the case? I'm under the impression that it's not a bug or tooltip bug but that actually arpen cap at 100% armor penetration but looking at the formula if 100% arpen really gives 100% armor pen we will obtain a negative value for boss damage reduction if we cap ArPen. If we now put the 0.81 penality the minimum damage reduction will be 2% an ok value it seems. Basically what I want to say is that the 0.81 shouldn't be put into ArPen formula but into damage reduction formula while taking ArPen into account. In that way they really have increased ArPen but they also have changed Armor formula to avoid negative reduction values.

 

hellord

Arp doesnt seem to suffer diminishing returns. I tested quite a lot of combination of debuffs and gear (up to 60% arp from gear) and the relative contribution due to gear is always a flat 80%sh. What diminishes is the contribution of FF and Sunder at higher level of arp from gear.

Also due to the multiplicative nature of stacking debuffs, there is no way to reach more than 100% arp and get a negative value.
Even at 99% arp from gear if you apply both sunder and ff the boss is still left with 0.76% armor and the only way to make it 0 is having 100% arp. Overcapping it will just be a waste like it is for other cappable stats like hit and exp (or crit) and if they want to control this cap they just need to itemize gear properly.

There is currently no explaination for arp reduction. The 0.81 value can even "work as intended" but it's meaningless saying that battlestance reduces armor by 10% since it doesnt happen, nor saying that arp rating got a 25% buff sicne tooltip shows that but the game just re-reduce it to something like actual live value+0.8%.
The real changes are debuffs contribution (changed to relative) and gear/buffs stacking that is now additive. So while buffs won't change the value of your arp on gear (they only lowers the cap), both debuffs applied will reduce it's value by 25% (0.76 factor if you apply both FF and sunder.

Putting a DR on arp could be a way to reduce it's scaling, that is actually increasing, but honestly i didnt read anywhere a blue sayin anything about it.

EDIT: I did few tests today and BattleStance still gives 8.1% arp, so nothing has changed yet

ArP Whore

 

nightcrowler

I don't get it Hellorco. If I apply Rallik formula without 0.81 suppression I can have 100% armor pen from gear (I'm a druid so I don't have talents) and another 24% from debuff (FFF+Sunder).
In formula:

x=1
y= 1- 0.95*0.80 = 0.24
A = 15232.5
B = 10643

15232.5/(15232.5+10643*(1-(1+0.24)+(10643/(10643+ 15232.5))*(1*0.24))) = 1.1095 = 110.95% is more than 100%

if now I apply the formula with 0.81 suppression:

15232.5/(15232.5+10643*(1-(1*0.81+0.24)+(10643/(10643+ 15232.5))*(1*0.81*0.24))) = 0.9795 = 97.95% is less than 100%

this is what i wanted to say: without 0.81 suppression you could put the boss at "negative armor" (nonsense) so probably there is a "new armor formula" and 0.81 is simply a factor similar but indipendent from the 1/1.25 of the new arpen conversion rating.

 

Exemplar

What Hellorco is saying is that if you get enough ArmPen that the Armour rating of your target would go below 0, nothing happens. The extra ArmPen is wasted.

This is identical to how Hit and Expertise function. If you get to 0 misses with Hit Rating, extra Hit rating does nothing. If you get to 0 dodges and parries with Expertise, extra Expertise does nothing.

You would reach 100% Armor Reduction lower than 100% ArmPen. End of story.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

dysent

Regarding .81 suppression on ArP:

If you do the math based on .81 suppression, ArP on PTR is 1.0125 * live
Tooltip is 1.25*live.

So: if you take the way it works on live, and just increase by 1.25% instead of 1.25, but increase the tooltip by the full 1.25, you get the strange value it has now.

Occam's Razor: Sounds like a coder flubbed their decimal point

[edit: posted this on blizz PTR forum using Hellord's data (hope you don't mind - not trying to take credit for your effort - just had lots of time bored@work to build a [bug] post and want to see this crap fixed) This time Deso chimed in with a 'to be examined', which is something I didn't see in the other ArP bug threads; possibly because they got muddied down by the sunder/FF interaction, which isn't actually a bug and confuses the data. Hopefully the extra visibility helped.]

 

Melthu

The thing is, the 81% effectiveness bug isn't just happening to ArPen from gear. Penetration from Battle Stance and Mace spec are also affected by it, so something else is going on.

 

Exemplar

Bold is my highlight - that's a great sign. Hopefully in a new push this will be corrected (125% not 1.25%) and it'll be easy to verify working as expected.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

nightcrowler

I've redone the stats ranking for feral druids (cat) using the bugged Rallik formula for armor reduction. Here you can see the results: FeralbyNight (Cat & Bear simulation tool)

I see 2 solutions: they can remove +25% bonus from feral druids or they can keep that strange 0.81 penality becase otherwise with a 25% boost ArPen will be a no brain stats. And Blizzard stated a lot of time that they don't want a stats to be too powerfull.

 

dysent

I was thinking about this and here's how I think it works in a way that gels with all existing theories (and mine):

[Disclaimer: this is theory. Only thing I've got is that it gels with the data and another theory, but the only other way I can explain the problem is if blizzard actually hardcoded a penalty]
1. Battle stance and Mace ArP get converted to ArP based on your level and factored directly into your character sheet ArP stat. This is what causes them to be additive with gear instead of multiplicative. They're basically converted into an ArP buff.

This means that on live, Battle stance is actually just 153.95 ArP at level 80, and Mace spec is 230.93 ArP.

2. Battle Stance and Mace Spec got reduced to their new numbers, 123.16 ArP and 184.75 ArP respectively. (the intended new 10%/15%)

3. After all this is factored in, a 1.0125% buff was hardcoded at the end of the calculation. None of the other values were changed.

4. The result: ArP and static buffs are all malfunctioning by the same amount, in addition to an effective nerf to static ArP buffs.

#1 could be calculated in percentages instead of ArP rating, but the net effect is the same. Talent/class based buffs hit ArP along with gear in exactly the same was as a stat on gear or a food buff.
This seems - again, occam's razor - like the most likely explanation. Most other explanations I can think of involve blizz intentionally stealth nerfing the stat they're buffing or making weird and unnecessary calculation changes.

 

hellord

I posted those data to be shared so I just have to thanks you for posting them
May you link the post so we can see if there is any response?
If it's working as intended they should just update the numbers in ptr patch notes

ArP Whore

 

dysent

Sure thing - World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> [BUG] PTR ArP exactly 19% worse than tooltip
Hopefully it just gets fixed next push, as currently it's a nerf compared to live, ja?

 

• landsoul

If there's any chance people don't understand why it's 81% I will clarify again:

put this in a calculator

and you will get exactly 0.81.

This bug is purely a common coder's asleep at the wheel error.
The tooltip(s) are inconsistent with the actual game code. It's fairly easy to understand that the actual formula then does not read off the displayed tooltip in the game.

Also, I will re-write Rallik's Formula.


where x is between 0 and 1 and is the sum of armor pen buffs: arms, mace spec, gear.
y is the difference of product of the .8 and .95 from sunder and FF = .24
A is 15232.5 the half armor value
B is 10643 the boss armor.

Visit my Youtube Channel for an increasing selection of warrior videos, including Undermanning, PvP, and LK Raids:
http://www.youtube.com/user/LandsoulWoW

 

Lollersk8er

Are you sure? Your formula provides a different result from Rallik's one.

 

Grayson Carlyle

I get the same results.

 

hellord

Tbh I'm getting same results from same inputs for both formulas

ArP Whore

 

Lollersk8er

I get the same results when y is 1-0.76. Like in the original formula. If I do it exactly as it stands there, I get different results.

 

• landsoul

It's basic algebra re-write. It lets you visualize the interaction that happens (or what is supposed to happen) to sunders and FF when x>0

y should be .24 not .76 that's my bad.

With sunder and FF, Armor penetration then caps out at 84.324%

amount of buffs/debuffs	amount ArP% needed	rating required
None	100	1232
Sunder	87.171	1074
Sunder+FF	84.324	1039
Sunder+FF+Arms	74.324	916
Sunder+FF+Arms+Mace	59.324	731

basically what is happening in the formula is that everything is additive, but sunder+ff reduction is scaled down by the product of the bosses' original reduction and your ArP

Visit my Youtube Channel for an increasing selection of warrior videos, including Undermanning, PvP, and LK Raids:
http://www.youtube.com/user/LandsoulWoW