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Old 08/28/08, 7:17 PM   #1
Celdhyrean
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Archimonde (EU)
[WotLK] Listing of class synergies (talents and skills)

Not sure wether it should be posted here, but while i have seen a few discussions on synergies i haven't found a complete listing yet. And since it's about facts on not opinions, i thought it'd be better here.
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Seeing all the changes to skills and talents that will be coming with wotlk, i thought it would be usefull as a raid leader to have a good overview of what any spec can bring to the group without having to go through several talents pages on the usual websites. Thus i made myself an excel spreadsheet listing all skill/talents that i counted as synergies (buffs to single/party/raid and debuffs helping mitigation against or increasing damage to mobs). As it isn't possible to present all effects in a simple manner, this spreadsheet won't replace knowledge of each skill and talent from each class. It's purpose is simply to help me and other raid leaders to get to know them, and providing a tool to check up on things rapidly.
It took me a certain time to write it and as such it might lack a bit of coherency in the denomination/classifications used, though i did do several passes over it afterwards to make it better. I tried to use several classifications (as objectively as i could) to make things clear and easy to filter in several ways without bloating it too much.

It's supposed to be complete with regards to the current beta state, though i might have missed things/parameters or misunderstood stuff. As such it's open to correction (and changes to beta will have to be integrated too).

--
What it looks like :

Dowload links for the excel sheets :

Raid Synergies list 0.52
Raid Synergies list 0.51
Raid Synergies list 0.50

Last edited by Celdhyrean : 09/03/08 at 1:16 PM.

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Old 08/28/08, 7:43 PM   #2
Nitz
Don Flamenco
 
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Draenei Shaman
 
Ysondre (EU)
You linked the thumbnail.

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Old 08/28/08, 7:44 PM   #3
Exiliad
Glass Joe
 
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Draenei Warrior
 
Cenarion Circle
Nice organization of all pertinent buffs / debuffs.

I did notice you were missing the druid's Feral Aggression though (for upto 40% increased AP reduction on Demoralizing Roar).

Edit: Sunder Armor seems to also be missing.

Last edited by Exiliad : 08/28/08 at 8:55 PM.

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Old 08/28/08, 7:51 PM   #4
Pyros
Bald Bull
 
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Undead Death Knight
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Unsure the example reflect the current content of the file, don't have excel viewer installed on this pc, but the DK stuff is wrong, auras aren't linked to presence anymore, so they only require the talent, and acclimatation doesn't require any specific presence to work either.

Edit: Also linking imageshack in EJ will probably kill it by tomorrow. Just saying ^^.

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Old 08/28/08, 7:53 PM   #5
 frmorrison
Protector
 
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Ashstrike
Human Paladin
 
No WoW Account
Abom's Might is 10% attack power and is raid-wide (sharing buff with Enh Shaman).

The Moonkin and Feral Auras are planned to be raid-wide (not sure if that was patched in yet).

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Old 08/28/08, 8:31 PM   #6
PSGarak
Bald Bull
 
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Undead Warlock
 
Hyjal
Great start, thanks for taking the effort to do something I've been dithering about for weeks. It's an impressive list for its completeness, but for ease of use I would like to have "type" broken down a bit further. The current "type" column is useful if you only want to look at a one aspect of the raid at a time, but for filtering out buffs that may stack it would be useful to have things like "spell hit" "AP" "miss chance" and so forth.

If I have some time tonight I may tinker with it and add some functionality in addition to information presentation. Something along the lines of "select which specs you have present and see which debuffs you have and how many people it took." If I do, I'll be sure to post it.


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Old 08/28/08, 8:32 PM   #7
nuoHep
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Rogue
 
Magtheridon (EU)
I think you'll have to reevaluate your sheet according to this: WoW Forums -> Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stacking

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Old 08/28/08, 8:33 PM   #8
Disargeria
Piston Honda
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Boulderfist
Edit: too late

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Old 08/28/08, 9:34 PM   #9
PSGarak
Bald Bull
 
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Undead Warlock
 
Hyjal
Well, the list is still a rough draft, but we can start coming up with the minimum number of characters needed to cover every buff. If you want this automatically solved you could model it as a network-flow problem (shaman totems might push it into integer programming), but I think it can be solved by inspection.

I can get it down to 8: moonkin, disc priest, arms warrior, ret pally (with BoK), mage, shaman (dropping Wrath of Air, not windfury), fury warrior, frost DK. That misses out on spell slows and RAP buff, but covers every other category, and if the +dmg effect on IDS is as small as it is now that may be the smallest one of all the applicable talents. When we find out what other class can cover Blood Frenzy that may ease up the list a bit, by allowing a feral druid to cover all the warrior buffs.

Currently I think ferals and warriors overlap too much (-AP, +crit, +bleed, -haste) and affliction warlocks are rather underpowered as a support class. We'll see if that's acceptable to the developers after some amount of testing.

Also, who belongs to Horn of Winter? I do not recall seeing such an ability anywhere.


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Old 08/28/08, 9:47 PM   #10
gia
 
Blood Elf Priest
 
Genjuros (EU)
Horn of Winter is a currently unimplemented DK talent that is meant to mirror Strength of Earth, it was hinted at in a couple blue posts in the beta forum. By the name, I'm assuming it will be a frost talent.

Edit:
The death knight brings Abomination's Might, Improved Icy Talons, various Auras, and a new Str + Agi buff you haven't seen yet (again depending on spec).
Source: WoW Forums -> Raid stacking in Wrath of the Lich King

Last edited by gia : 08/28/08 at 9:54 PM.

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Old 08/28/08, 10:24 PM   #11
Mode
Piston Honda
 
Troll Shaman
 
The Venture Co
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
ferals and warriors overlap too much (-AP, +crit, +bleed, -haste)
While it's true the classes overlap, the real-world specs mean a warrior is only going to provide two of those at most.

-haste: It's serious DPS loss for a dps warrior to maintain thunderclap and it's resisted like a spell vs a feral druid just getting it for free when they use mangle.

+crit: Only for deep fury warriors.

+bleed: Only for deep arms warriors.

-ap: Yeah, every warrior can do this. No prot warrior will ever have the talented version.

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Old 08/28/08, 11:46 PM   #12
HiddenWings
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Druid
 
Argent Dawn
Originally Posted by Mode View Post
-ap: Yeah, every warrior can do this. No prot warrior will ever have the talented version.
Unless something changes with Feral Aggression between now and the expansion, no druid will have the talented version either. The mentioned re-evaluation of the feral tree hasn't happened yet, so anything's possible however.

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Old 08/29/08, 12:23 AM   #13
PSGarak
Bald Bull
 
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Undead Warlock
 
Hyjal
An arms warrior may be in Battle Stance full-time because of the overpower-on-rend-tick talent. Merging melee and spell hit will clear up the resist issue. The overriding concern will probably be threat, followed by rage and GCDs. I wouldn't expect a fury warrior to be able to pick it up.
And while that's good for the druid that they can cover those, it's not as good for the DPS warriors. I hope their DPS is as off-the-hook as their talents look right now, because if their tanking and utility is strictly worse than kitty-feral they're a wee bit hosed. The point is that different classes bring different things to the raid, not that some simply bring less than others without compensation. As it stand the only thing of note a warrior would bring over a feral is Sunder, which is replaceable by EA albeit at a non-trivial cost.
(Note: I'm not saying zomg nerf ferals buff wars, I'm saying these are the considerations that I would like voiced and taken into account when blizzard moves from their rough draft to their next polish pass)


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Old 08/29/08, 12:37 AM   #14
TheNameLessOne
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Spirestone
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
An arms warrior may be in Battle Stance full-time because of the overpower-on-rend-tick talent. Merging melee and spell hit will clear up the resist issue. The overriding concern will probably be threat, followed by rage and GCDs. I wouldn't expect a fury warrior to be able to pick it up.
And while that's good for the druid that they can cover those, it's not as good for the DPS warriors. I hope their DPS is as off-the-hook as their talents look right now, because if their tanking and utility is strictly worse than kitty-feral they're a wee bit hosed. The point is that different classes bring different things to the raid, not that some simply bring less than others without compensation. As it stand the only thing of note a warrior would bring over a feral is Sunder, which is replaceable by EA albeit at a non-trivial cost.
(Note: I'm not saying zomg nerf ferals buff wars, I'm saying these are the considerations that I would like voiced and taken into account when blizzard moves from their rough draft to their next polish pass)
The whole point is they do not want any spec to ever have a must have buff that is not provided via an alternate way. Further more warlocks and DKs also provide most of these utility debuffs you are referring to, both of which are in a far more stable state than feral is currently.

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Old 08/29/08, 3:01 AM   #15
Celdhyrean
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Archimonde (EU)
re Imageshack : didn't find anything on it in the rules and i thought it'd be preferable to give people an idea of what it'd look like without forcing them to open the file (and without killing my webspace's bandwith). If there's any alternative site better suited for here (or if i should just remove it), it's not really an essential part of the post.

Originally Posted by nuoHep View Post
I think you'll have to reevaluate your sheet according to this: WoW Forums -> Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stacking
Hadn't seen that one yet, thanks. It will help to categorize things now that we have an official list, I'll probably wait to change some of the effect modifications they gave in this new list because it seems a number of them haven't been published yet (probably form their internal build). Same for Horn of Winter.
I'll probably collapse some of them though (buffs/debuffs, flat/multipliers). Moonkin and Feral auras aren't raid wide yet.

I'll try to add what i've missed during the day at work and rework the categorisation according to the list.

Don't hesitate to tinker with it and add more tools, i'll have to admit that i'm not motivated/knowledgeable enough with Excel/programming to work on such things.

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