Raiding and debuff slots

alkis · 11/10/08, 9:40 AM

Coming patch 3.0.x Blizzard made the buff/debuff revamp to make building raids a lot easier and changed the scaling of each class/spec to bring the specs closer to each other in terms of performance.

With the above change a lot of classes got extra debuffs, to mimic some ability of another class/spec and create an overlap between the debuffs and make your raids less dependent on particular specs being in the raid or you do not raid. Also with the changes to the dps specs to be closer to each other we are going to be seeing a lot more variation (hopefully) to played specs. Not all your mages will be fire. Not all your warlocks will be destro.

Raiding in TBC post 3 seems like there is no way we can keep under the 40 debuff slots unless we really try and homogenize a lot of people to keep the number of debuff slots low. Did Blizzard in their attempt to simplify the meta-game of building proper raid groups only to introduction another? So instead of raid leaders having to know how to build groups with synergy now they would need to know how to build raid groups that are under the 40 default limit? A shadow priest uses 5 instead of 4. Now totem of wrath is an NPC debuff. These are not the only examples and DKs are going to make this even worse.

Saladin · 11/10/08, 10:04 AM

Do redundant debuffs actually consume debuff slots, or simply show extra tooltips? (I.e., two Hunter's Mark showing up on a target but only one actually applying) My guess would be that if you have Insect Swarm and Scorpid Sting up, it would count as one "debuff" even though Insect Swarm would basically overwrite Scorpid Sting.

Furthermore, many of these are active debuffs. Say an ele shammy goes to a raid. "Oh, we have a ret paladin? Cool, then I'll drop Flametongue Totem instead of Totem of Wrath." Some are baked in (Earth and Moon, Heart of the Crusader, Mangle), but the number of active player-controlled debuffs are such that as long as players follow the path of least resistance as they always have, debuff management shouldn't become that much of a hassle.

Ultimately I think that this could be a minor concern, but if it actually develops into such, Blizzard will look at upping the debuff limit like they did in BC.

Yvgenie · 11/10/08, 10:19 AM

Bring two affliction warlocks and one shadow priest and half your debuff slots are gone...

Saladin · 11/10/08, 10:30 AM

13 =! Half of 40

Let's assume a standard 25-man raid setup of 5 Tanks, 8 Healers, and 12 DPS.

Paladins are currently the only healers that take debuff slots. Let's be generous and say you have 4 Holy paladins (kek). That's 4 slots.

Let's also say you have at least one Feral, Tankadin, and Prot Warrior. They each keep up 2 debuffs (3 for the paladin if he's tanking). So assuming the paladin is tanking, 7 slots.

That's 11 out of 40 slots taken up by tanks and healers, and most likely less than that in a real life scenario. But assuming this outlandish hypothetical comes true, you are left with 29 debuff slots to divy out amongst 12 DPS. That works out to a little over 2 debuffs per DPS--most DPS puts out 2-3, which is right where they belong. If you do end up with an overwhelming number of Affliction locks it could be an issue. If you have players who interact synergistically with each other (like my ele shaman example earlier), that could help resolve the issue.

Debuff limitations won't be unheard of, but it's not the "OMG RAIDING AS WE KNOW IT IS OVER!" that I think it's coming across as to some people.

Lambach · 11/10/08, 11:26 AM

Saladin,
I think his question is very legitimate. I also think your ideas of 25 man raid make up are very.....wrong? I rarely see more then 2-3 tanks, and 7-8 healers with the rest being dps. Each dps takes up at least 2 slots generally along with some(myself included) take up 4. Debuff limits are probably going to be a problem for sure, and with blizzard trying to make raids more friendly towards group make up, it seems silly to alienate classes that are forced to bring several debuffs.

Also you are pretty far off on tank debuffs. Warriors and druid tanks are also taking up 3 debuffs at least.

Montegomery · 11/10/08, 11:32 AM

Some rough numbers on expected debuffs per class/spec:

Warrior (Fury): 1-2 (Deep Wounds and maybe Furious Attacks)
Warrior (Arms): 5 (Deep Wounds, Rend, Trauma (Shared Mangle), Blood Frenzy and Mortal Strike)

Warlock (Affliction): 6-7 (Curse, Corruption, Siphon Life, Unstable Affliction, Haunt, Shadow Embrace and maybe Immolate)
Warlock (Demonology): 1-3 (Curse, and maybe Corruption or Immolate)
Warlock (Destruction): 3 (Curse, Corruption, Immolate)

Shaman (Elemental): 2 (Totem of Wrath, Flame Shock)

Rogue (Assassination): 2 (Deadly Poison, Rupture)
Rogue (Combat): 3-4 (Deadly Poison, Rupture, Savage Combat and maybe Wound Poison)
Rogue (Subtlety): 3 (Deadly Poison, Rupture, Hemo)

Priest (Shadow): 5-6 (Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Pain, Devouring Plague, Misery, Mind Flay (Hidden) and maybe Vampiric Embrace)

Paladin (Retribution): 3 (Judgement, Heart of the Crusader, Righteous Vengeance)
Paladin (Holy): 1
Paladin (Protection): 2 (Judgement, Corruption/Vengeance)

Mage (Fire): 3-6 (Ignite, Living Bomb, Improved Scorch, and maybe Pyroblast DoT, Frostfire DoT or Fireball DoT)
Mage (Frost): 1-2 (Winters Chill and maybe Frostfire DoT)
Mage (Arcane): 1-3 (Arcane Missiles (Hidden) and maybe Slow or Imp Scorch)

Hunter (Beast Master): 1-3 (Sting, and maybe Pet DoT or Mark)
Hunter (Marksman): 2-4 (Sting, Aimed Shot and maybe Pet DoT or Mark)
Hunter (Survival): 2-4 (Sting, Explosive Shot? and maybe Pet DoT or Mark)

Druid (Balance): 2-4 (Moonfire, Earth and Moon, and maybe Insect Swarm or Faerie Fire)
Druid (Feral - Cat): 2-5 (Rip, Rake, Mangle (shared Trauma), and maybe Infected Wounds, Faerie Fire)
Druid (Feral - Bear): 1-4 (Lacerate, Mangle (shared Trauma) and maybe Infected Wounds, Faerie Fire)

Death Knight (Blood): 2-5 (Blood Plague, Heart Strike and maybe Frost Fever, and duplicate diseases from Dancing Rune Weapon)
Death Knight (Frost): 1-2 (Blood Plague and maybe Frost Fever)
Death Knight (Unholy): 2-4 (Blood Plague, Unholy Blight, and maybe Frost Fever or Ebon Plague)

I don't know enough about Death Knights, Hunters, or Mages to suggest any numbers. However, the average number of debuff slots per DPS is ~3 with the above data. With Saladin's numbers you only need 10 DPS to go over the debuff limit.

A lot of this depends, however, on how the game handles redundant buffs. A large number of slots would open up if redundant debuffs would block each other. Heart of the Crusader blocking Totem of Wrath's debuff, Infected Wounds blocking Thunderclap's debuff and Trauma blocking Mangle would be helpful, though there are many cases where coding that in would be problematic (Moonkin Faerie Fire versus Misery).

alkis · 11/10/08, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Saladin

Do redundant debuffs actually consume debuff slots, or simply show extra tooltips? (I.e., two Hunter's Mark showing up on a target but only one actually applying) My guess would be that if you have Insect Swarm and Scorpid Sting up, it would count as one "debuff" even though Insect Swarm would basically overwrite Scorpid Sting.

They take 2 debuff slots in that case even if they cause the same effect. The server needs to track both, otherwise how would it know when each one of them fades?

Originally Posted by Saladin

13 =! Half of 40

Let's assume a standard 25-man raid setup of 5 Tanks, 8 Healers, and 12 DPS.

Don't assume anything. Just go try it out and use a debuff counter. I did it and I never see anything below 40 debuffs on bosses. My dots are falling off. And we are talking about a raid without affliction warlocks. So we are past the limits now and we are getting yet another heavy dot class in less than a week (every raid will need an unholy DK and that's another 5 (?) debuff slots).

sleepyfox · 11/10/08, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

Some rough numbers on expected debuffs per class/spec:

Warrior (Fury): 1 (Deep Wounds)
Warrior (Arms): 4 (Deep Wounds, Rend, Trauma, Blood Frenzy)

Warlock (Affliction): 6-7 (Curse, Corruption, Siphon Life, Unstable Affliction, Haunt, Shadow Embrace and possibly Immolate)
Warlock (Demonology): 3 (Curse, Corruption, Immolate)
Warlock (Destruction): 3 (Curse, Corruption, Immolate)

Shaman (Elemental): 2 (Totem of Wrath, Flame Shock)

Rogue (Assassination or Combat): 2 (Deadly Poison, Rupture)
Rogue (Subtlety): 3 (Deadly Poison, Rupture, Hemo)

Priest (Shadow): 4-5 (Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Pain, Devouring Plague, Misery, and maybe Vampiric Embrace)

Paladin (Retribution): 3 (Judgement, Heart of the Crusader, Righteous Vengeance)

Druid (Balance): 2-4 (Moonfire, Earth and Moon, and maybe Earth and Moon or Faerie Fire)
Druid (Feral): 2-5 (Rip, Rake, and maybe Mangle or Infected Wounds or Faerie Fire)

I don't know enough about Death Knights, Hunters, or Mages to suggest any numbers. However, the average number of debuff slots per DPS is ~3 with the above data. With Saladin's numbers you only need 10 DPS to go over the debuff limit.

A lot of this depends, however, on how the game handles redundant buffs. A large number of slots would open up if redundant debuffs would block each other. Heart of the Crusader blocking Totem of Wrath's debuff, Infected Wounds blocking Thunderclap's debuff and Trauma blocking Mangle would be helpful, though there are many cases where coding that in would be problematic (Moonkin Faerie Fire versus Misery).

Add BM hunters: Hunter's Mark, Scorpid Sting, Ferocious Inspiration
MM hunters: Hunter's Mark, Serpent Sting
SV hunters: Hunter's Mark, Serpent Sting, Explosive Shot

Edited: forgot possible pet DoTs/or debuffs such as wasp's Sting

I find personally as a demo warlock that both corruption and immolate are a net dps loss, so I'm just using CoA and Shadow Bolt, so just 1 debuff slot for me.

AFAIK you can't put up a debuff that clashes with an existing one, e.g. trying to put up Curse of Elements when another warlock has it up, or when a boomkin has Earth and Moon up. Multiple DoTs stack, e.g. 2 warlocks both using Corruption = 2 debuff slots.

Certainly it seems we have a new game to play with trying to maximise DPS whilst we minimise debuff usage, this favour classes that have minimal debuff slots e.g. fury warriors and demonology warlocks. Certainly I can't see my self taking along more than 1 affliction warlock.

For raid composition min/maxing I've found mmo-champion's raidcomp tool useful (MMO-Champion RaidComp), though unfortunately it doesn't track debuff usage (e.g. DoTs or bleed effects), only debuff talents/auras.

Leart · 11/10/08, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

I don't know enough about Death Knights, Hunters

Death Knights:
Standard:
Icy Touch, Blood Plague, Death and Decay (on trash mostly)
Spec (unholy):
Crypt Fever / Ebon Plague, Unholy Blight, Gargoyle, Desecration (on trash only)
Spec (blood):
Gargoyle

The standard Dk is pretty clean. Unholy gets nasty.
But, if the DK goes into Ebon, it has the same spell +% damage as others. They may not all be required up.

Hunters:
Mark x1
Serpent Sting
Some pets have a dot
Possible disarm from MM
Dot from SV hunters

sleepyfox · 11/10/08, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Leart

But, if the DK goes into Ebon, it has the same spell +% damage as others. They may not all be required up.

Yup, Ebon Plaguebring will not go up if Earth and Moon or Maledicted CoE are already up, though it should overwrite a untalented CoE, though I haven't had a chance to test this yet.

Leart · 11/10/08, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by sleepyfox

Yup, Ebon Plaguebring will not go up if Earth and Moon or Maledicted CoE are already up, though it should overwrite a untalented CoE, though I haven't had a chance to test this yet.

Actually, I think Ebon Plague overrides the other two, or at least goes up for its own purposes.
Remember, it's an addition to Crypt Fever. As that part is unique, I believe it has to go up.

Prinsesa · 11/10/08, 12:09 PM

To add to the list:

Paladin (Holy): 1 (Judgement) - Even if both JOL and JOW are covered, a Holy Paladin will still Judge once a minute for his Judgements of the Pure's haste buff

Paladin (Protection): 2 (Judgement, Blood Corruption/Vengeance)

Mage (Fire): 3 (Fireball DOT, Improved Scorch, Living Bomb)

In any case, Sleepyfox has a point: Overlapping debuffs can and probably will cut down on the amount a raid will actually need, but only empirical testing will reveal if overlapping debuffs will actually not overlap in reality. It's currently possible to stack multiple Judgements of Wisdom, even if it doesn't actually do anything.

There's already a rudimentary system in place to handle this, but it runs into problems in some cases, as in the case with Improved Faerie Fire vs. unimproved/Feral Faerie Fire vs. Misery.

EDIT: Savage Combat from Combat Rogues, a 2% increased physical damage taken debuff parallel to Blood Frenzy, has its own debuff.

Infected Wounds and Thunder Clap, both attack speed decreases important for raid boss tanking, generate their own debuffs, while Judgements of the Just, the Paladin version, does not.

Montegomery · 11/10/08, 12:22 PM

I've updated my post with the info given by Prinsesa and Leart.

I think sleepyfox is onto something when he cites raidcomp. Given the high probability of hitting the debuff limit in a 25-man it would be very helpful for raid leaders if they could see where their composition stands on that issue.

Shamroq · 11/10/08, 12:41 PM

Edit on Mages:

Mage (Fire):5 Fireball Dot (Ignite), Scorch, Living Bomb, Pyroblast Dot, Frostfire Dot
Mage (Frost):2 Winters Chill, Frostfire Dot

Leart · 11/10/08, 12:52 PM

Cataloging these debuff slots, so we know our limits is useful.
But I hope that after we finish, we work more to determine which debuffs should be sacrifice for each other, and the specs those sacrifices force.

For instance:
Rogues with Deadly Poison.
How much of a dps loss would it be to change just one weapon to instant poison instead? Would that be offset by going mutilate?