Okay, after seeing some empirical evidence I'm prepared to eat my words.
I guess the thing that's surprising me is that this issue is being brought up so late in the game. We're less than 3 days from release now--did Blizzard really manage to let a debacle as critical as this slip through?
They are aware of it and have been for years. The reason they don't increase it is that it increases bandwidth use (and possibly serverside calculations) significantly.
While it is a bit strange that two years after we had to tell affliction warlocks to respec because we ran out of debuff slots we have to do it again there is no reason to expect a hotfix for this. If it was a priority it would have been included in WotLK.
I'm not sure Redundant Debuffs do show up. Further testing is required, but here's what I've seen on live with reagrds to the mage debuffs of Winter's chill and Improved Scorch.
If Improved scorch is on the boss, any attempts at applying winter's chill fail to do so. Once the scorch debuff fades, then Winter's chill can begin applying. Even if scorch has been up and a frost mages has been spamcasting spells that would apply the Winters Chill debuff, that debuff starts at 0 at builds up once the scorch has gone.
Likewise, if the winter's chill debuff is on the mob, any attempts to apply the improved scorch debuff fail to do so.
What I have not tested is if a stronger version will overwrite a weaker version. If glyphed Improved Scorch (3) will overwrite Winters chill at a 2 stack or less. I also do not now how this affdects other debuffs of varying strength.
The last information I've read is that like buffs do overwrite each other. For example, druids confirmed that Mangle and Trauma share a debuff slot. They even changed the way our other abilities are worded to make them interact exactly the same.
Considering the absence of an offtank warrior in a raid, should a fury warrior pick up 5/5 Improved Demoralizing Shout, or has this debuff be thrown by the waist side after this most recent patch?
Debuffs will "share a slot" only when they are exactly the same. Winter's chill and Imp Scorch are both 10% crit and don't stack, so only one can be on the target. Earth and Moon increases spell damage taken by 13%. CoE increases spell damage taken by 10% and reduces magic resistance by 88 So, they can both be on the target at the same time. Though, the magic resistance reduction is all you get from CoE.
Debuffs will "share a slot" only when they are exactly the same. Winter's chill and Imp Scorch are both 10% crit and don't stack, so only one can be on the target. Earth and Moon increases spell damage taken by 13%. CoE increases spell damage taken by 10% and reduces magic resistance by 88 So, they can both be on the target at the same time. Though, the magic resistance reduction is all you get from CoE.
And Ebon Plague is a disease instead of a curse/magic, which means there'll be 3 debuff slots all doing pretty much the same thing.
I'm not sure Redundant Debuffs do show up. Further testing is required, but here's what I've seen on live with reagrds to the mage debuffs of Winter's chill and Improved Scorch.
If Improved scorch is on the boss, any attempts at applying winter's chill fail to do so. Once the scorch debuff fades, then Winter's chill can begin applying. Even if scorch has been up and a frost mages has been spamcasting spells that would apply the Winters Chill debuff, that debuff starts at 0 at builds up once the scorch has gone.
Likewise, if the winter's chill debuff is on the mob, any attempts to apply the improved scorch debuff fail to do so.
What I have not tested is if a stronger version will overwrite a weaker version. If glyphed Improved Scorch (3) will overwrite Winters chill at a 2 stack or less. I also do not now how this affdects other debuffs of varying strength.
I ran Kara on my mage alt (fire) with another mage (frost). I didn't stop to explicitly test it, but I observed the following:
The first to occur of Imp. Scorch or Winter's Chill debuffs the target.
Subsequent applications of either Imp. Scorch or Winter's Chill will increase/refresh the stack (no matter which type is the initial debuff).
Anyone seeing the same behavior? In the interest of full disclosure, I was somewhat distracted with setting up controls on a n52te during the run.
For the most part redundant debuffs will not apply over currently existing effects unless they have a secondary effect that is not covered by a current one. As an example DK's have a disease they apply called Frost Fever(Frf). It has a dot component and an attack speed debuff component. Infected wounds (IW) has an attack speed component and a snare component.
On most targets while grouped with a DK IW will apply even if Frf is up. Frf is doting and applying the slow, IW cant apply the slow because its there already but it can apply the snare so both debuffs take a slot. On a target immune to snares FrF overwrites IW and I can not apply IW because the target is immune to one effect and already has the other effect. If IW is applied first its slow effect takes precedence although the dot of FrF still works. If IW ever drops off FrF takes over the slow and IW will not reapply.
So once all raid debuffs are applied only ones with a damage componant will show up after that point. Oh and for the person listing debuffs per class you didnt account for 2 types of ferals
Feral Bear Mangle Laccerate IW, FFF, and demo
Feral cat mangle rake rip FFF IW.
Either way we can take up 5 slots by ourselves although FFF and mangle only are 1 per raid as is IW and demo (someone will be applying the effect)
I ran Kara on my mage alt (fire) with another mage (frost). I didn't stop to explicitly test it, but I observed the following:
The first to occur of Imp. Scorch or Winter's Chill debuffs the target.
Subsequent applications of either Imp. Scorch or Winter's Chill will increase/refresh the stack (no matter which type is the initial debuff).
Anyone seeing the same behavior? In the interest of full disclosure, I was somewhat distracted with setting up controls on a n52te during the run.
Absolutely not. I've tested this as both the fire mage in ZA and as a frost mage on the target dummies.
If Improved scorch is up on the target, Winter's chill will not apply. If the fire mages does not refresh improved scorch, it will fall off, and then the winter's chill will begin to apply starting at 0 and building up to a 5 stack.
There are thirty or so different categories into which buffs and debuffs fit. Here you will find a comprehensive list of the changes made broken down by category and which spells/talents are in that category.
Considering the absence of an offtank warrior in a raid, should a fury warrior pick up 5/5 Improved Demoralizing Shout, or has this debuff be thrown by the waist side after this most recent patch?
Since CoR no longer stacks, 2/5 of the talent will completely debuff the mobs ap (as would 2/5 of the feral talent). The only application I can think of is if you are using CoR in 10mans and are missing a Druid who can FF, or a Hunter who can spec BM and bring a Sting pet.. both of which I find unlikely, given the utility of Boomkin and Hunters in 10mans.
Frost Fever, Blood Plague, Stroke, and Crypt Fever/Ebon Plague(one or the other) are the only possible debuffs on a boss. Unholy blight, death and decay, and gargoyle are not debuffs.
So three first blood dk, two every blood dk after.
Two for all frost dks.
Three for first unholy dk, two for every dk after.
If a dk uses the razorice rune glyph that will create another debuff (+5% frost damage taken by the boss) but that would only be used in some kind of multiple frost/frostfire mage scenario.
So DKs are not really making the problem worse, they are about average for a tank/dps class on debuffs.
DoTs like rupture, deadly posion, siphon life, flame shock, immolate(for affliction), living bomb, are all removable from rotations without huge dps hits(there are others as well that could be removed)
As you mentioned some of the redundant debuffs are indeed handled properly, for example mortal strike, aimed shot, and wound posion will not all be up at the same time. This begs testing of course, but I would imagine CoR disappears on FF application(not that a lock would even waste his curse on cor if a druid was in the raid), as well as other various examples. Fairly certain all channeled spells have an invisible or visible debuff connecting you to the mob.
The only way I think guilds will currently have a problem is with aff locks and spriests in multiples, it is possible affliction locks will be forced to respec until blizzard implements some sort of solution, but there is nothing we can do about it now, aside from make developers aware of the problem.
DoTs like rupture, deadly posion, siphon life, flame shock, immolate(for affliction), living bomb, are all removable from rotations without huge dps hits(there are others as well that could be removed)
The Warlock ones I can somewhat agree with and I can't speak for all of the others, but flame shock cannot be removed from an Elemental Shaman's rotation if you expect any reasonable dps out of the Shaman. Blizzard's whole philosophy with Elemental dps is now built around flame shock DoT + lava burst. It can and likely will be removed from an Enhancement rotation, though.
It can and likely will be removed from an Enhancement rotation, though.
It actually already has been, and not because of any debuff limit concern. Since Lava Burst was removed from Maelstrom Weapon and Stormstrike received increased charges while being limited to personal spells only, Earth Shock is outshining Flame Shock by a fair margin, especially if/when the Earth Shock glyph issue is fixed (though that may have happened and I missed it).
Since CoR no longer stacks, 2/5 of the talent will completely debuff the mobs ap (as would 2/5 of the feral talent). The only application I can think of is if you are using CoR in 10mans and are missing a Druid who can FF, or a Hunter who can spec BM and bring a Sting pet.. both of which I find unlikely, given the utility of Boomkin and Hunters in 10mans.
Note that talented CoR no longer buffs AP. Granted, I guess warlocks would find it hard to fit frailty in a raid build, but it's still there.
Honestly seeing CoR will be ultra rare. Only really in the situation where you have a really melee heavy 10 man with no druid, or in the situation where you have someone else bringing the magic debuff(unholy dk), and you have atleast 3 melee w/no druid.
DoTs like rupture, deadly posion, siphon life, flame shock, immolate(for affliction), living bomb, are all removable from rotations without huge dps hits(there are others as well that could be removed)
Removing both Deadly Poison and Rupture from a Rogue's rotation will kill their DPS, hard. Beyond the obvious that Assassination would be completely crippled, Subtlety and Combat would both suffer from being almost completely restricted to Eviscerate (the only finisher that can be mitigated by armor).
I'm also under the impression that Living Bomb is important to keeping Fire Mages competitive, but I don't know enough about Mages to be certain.
What I lack in intelligence I make up for in verbosity. Monte's LoL Blog
They are aware of it and have been for years. The reason they don't increase it is that it increases bandwidth use (and possibly serverside calculations) significantly.
While it is a bit strange that two years after we had to tell affliction warlocks to respec because we ran out of debuff slots we have to do it again there is no reason to expect a hotfix for this. If it was a priority it would have been included in WotLK.
We would like to increase the number of debuff slots, yes, and we most likely will. Unfortunately, this is very complicated to do tech wise. It greatly increases the amount of bandwidth for the server, for example, and also for the client (you).
When designing new talents, we try very hard to not add more debuff slots, though with the addition of a brand new class it's sort of unavoidable. In a nutshell, yes we realize the debuff slot stuff is an issue now and will be in the future and we're working on it.
It was brought up months ago on this issue and they did say there are plans to increase the debuff slots. However there have been little updates on that issue till now.
Paladin (Holy): 1 (Judgement) - Even if both JOL and JOW are covered, a Holy Paladin will still Judge once a minute for his Judgements of the Pure's haste buff
Can't you simply Judge Seal of Righteousness? It's just a straight up nuke so that's pretty clean.
Death Knight (Blood): 3-4 (Icy Touch, Blood Plague, Heart Strike and maybe Frost Fever)
Death Knight (Frost): 2-3 (Icy Touch, Blood Plague and maybe Frost Fever)
Death Knight (Unholy): 3-4 (Icy Touch, Blood Plague, Unholy Blight, and maybe Ebon Plague)
Icy Touch is an ability that causes Frost Fever, it doesn't leave its own debuff, I believe. Considering diseases modify the damage of many DK moves and do respectable damage on their own, there is no "maybe" about their use either, heh.
IMO your DK list should just read:
Blood: Blood Plague, Frost Fever, Stroke
Frost: Blood Plague, Frost Fever
Unholy: Blood Plague, Frost Fever, Ebon Plaguebringer
Whether other things like Gargoyle and Unholy Blight leave a debuff up are beyond my ken (I wasn't in the beta =/ ). it stands to reason they and many other things might, like Arcane Missiles' phantom debuff slot of yore.
You can't simply Judge Righteousness. Paladins now have three Judgement spells (Light, Wisdom, and Justice) each having its own debuff. Even if you're using a different seal the debuffs will still be applied.
What I lack in intelligence I make up for in verbosity. Monte's LoL Blog
Removing both Deadly Poison and Rupture from a Rogue's rotation will kill their DPS, hard. Beyond the obvious that Assassination would be completely crippled, Subtlety and Combat would both suffer from being almost completely restricted to Eviscerate (the only finisher that can be mitigated by armor).
I'm also under the impression that Living Bomb is important to keeping Fire Mages competitive, but I don't know enough about Mages to be certain.
Last time I saw the math on deadly/rupture(combat anyways) it was a minor loss (like under 100-150 dps in sunwell) to use instant/eviscerate instead, that could be different now, I am not sure.
Everyone always claims their dps would be crippled and yet for most classes they are just completely bsing you. Still, in the end the best way is to just not run affliction locks, and don't run more spriests than are needed for replenishment until a better solution comes.(assuming you are at the cap)
11/10/08, 4:26 PM
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