[FAQ]Working theories of raiding at level 80 - Page 3

dukes · 12/12/08, 8:36 AM

Hateful Strike is a "melee spell", not a melee ability as such. It uses a fixed damage range modified solely by armour. A number of other strikes such as Unbalancing Strike (Razuvious) however are based upon weapon damage or boss damage, so will (likely) be affected by AP.

edit: In regards to Maexxna, the AP won't be affecting the damaging abilities as they're spells that cause nature damage (poison shock / web spray).

PSGarak · 12/12/08, 3:35 PM

Well, it's techinically possible for a magic-damage ability to have AP scaling. Paladins and Death Knights already work that way. However, all things considered, it is unlikely for a boss ability to do so unless it is a magic-flavored melee ability of some sort. Spells generally scale separately from melee unless there is good reason, and boss spells probably also have a hard-coded damage range.

It might be useful to have a list of "hard-coded" vs "weapon-damage" boss melee abilities. This may take too much testing to be worthwhile.

Prinsesa · 12/13/08, 10:06 PM

There's also the related issue of disarming - Skadi's (Utgarde Pinnacle 3rd boss) Whirlwind tooltip indicates a hardcoded damage range of 4713 to 5287, while Commander Stoutbeard's (Nexus 1st/bonus boss) Whirlwind indicates 200% weapon damage.

True to form, disarming Skadi does absolutely nothing to reduce his WW damage, while most of the sting of Stoutbeard's WW can be taken out.

• Latito · 12/14/08, 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by Enova

Glancing Blows

- Glancing Blows only occur on players’ and pets' white MELEE attacks, and only against mobs of higher level. The damage on a Glancing Blow is reduced by the difference between the attacker’s weapon skill (player level*5) and the target’s defense skill. Against a boss mob, Glancing Blows do 70% of normal damage. Damage loss scales with level at a rate of -10% per level difference.
- Glancing Blow rate against boss mobs is estimated to be around 25%.

While I fail to bring a reference (the thread was deleted in the class mechanic cleanup).. Glancing blows occur at a 24% rate against boss level mobs. Also, while they didn't pre-wrath, they do occur now against equal level mobs at a rate of 6% (not completely verified, but with reasonable certainty). Also, glancing blows (against boss level mobs) deal between 70 and 80% of normal damage at an even distribution and can be, for calculation purposes, just assumed to be a 75% reduction. A 24% change to incur a 75% reduction in damage (on average) results in a 6% loss in damage (assuming you have an otherwise 100% hit chance on your attack table).

Brasou · 12/14/08, 4:35 PM

Hey, I was wondering if anybody knows how much armor bosses have now, before any kind of debuffs. I can't seem to find it anywhere even though I thought I saw it once.

Enova · 12/14/08, 9:59 PM

Originally Posted by Latito

While I fail to bring a reference (the thread was deleted in the class mechanic cleanup).. Glancing blows occur at a 24% rate against boss level mobs. Also, while they didn't pre-wrath, they do occur now against equal level mobs at a rate of 6% (not completely verified, but with reasonable certainty). Also, glancing blows (against boss level mobs) deal between 70 and 80% of normal damage at an even distribution and can be, for calculation purposes, just assumed to be a 75% reduction. A 24% change to incur a 75% reduction in damage (on average) results in a 6% loss in damage (assuming you have an otherwise 100% hit chance on your attack table).

Vulajin brought this up already, but I will update right now. I did mention it was an estimate value, though.

Originally Posted by Brasou

Hey, I was wondering if anybody knows how much armor bosses have now, before any kind of debuffs. I can't seem to find it anywhere even though I thought I saw it once.

General stuff paragraph, last line. 13083 armor all across the board.

Njald · 12/20/08, 2:01 AM

In response to this post
Is melee hit cap really 9%?
perhaps the first post in this "working theorycraft" thread should open up for the posibility that melee hit for dual wield is also subject the newly found "1% hit bonus".
The old asumption was 9 / 28 % for single / dual.
It is not farfecthed to asume that now when we tested the 9 so much that we are ready to reduce it to 8 then do we need more than the linked post to adjust our value for dualwield to 27% va bosslevel mobs?

Enova · 12/20/08, 3:19 AM

Originally Posted by Njald

In response to this post
Is melee hit cap really 9%?
perhaps the first post in this "working theorycraft" thread should open up for the posibility that melee hit for dual wield is also subject the newly found "1% hit bonus".
The old asumption was 9 / 28 % for single / dual.
It is not farfecthed to asume that now when we tested the 9 so much that we are ready to reduce it to 8 then do we need more than the linked post to adjust our value for dualwield to 27% va bosslevel mobs?

It is possible that this is indeed the case, but seeing as it is still very unreasonable to assume anyone will ever successfully reach the dual wield hit cap, I don't see how 1% will ever matter. I will however update the post to reflect the new working theory.

Shraal · 01/06/09, 1:07 AM

Originally Posted by Enova

[...]

Hit rating: reduces your chance to miss your target. The current chances to miss a raid boss (and as such the hit rating gaps to be filled) are as follows:

- 8% (264 hit rating for melee classes) for ranged, all special melee (yellow) attacks, as well as all attacks performed with a single weapon equipped; all + hit talents lower this gap by 32 hit rating for every 1%.
- 27% for melee auto attacks while dual wielding; this hit deficit is unreasonable to assume will be capped. You still want the 8% hit cap on the specials, and there is nothing wrong with going over that as a dual wielder.
- 14% (460 hit rating) for special melee (yellow) attacks performed while specced for Titan's Grip. This can be lowered to only 361 hit rating by picking up Precision.
- 17% (446 hit rating) for spell casting classes. All + hit talents lower this cap by 26 hit rating for every 1% chance.

Pets now share the owner's hit ratings. Also, talents increasing hit chance also affect the pets.

[...]

I wonder, is the 14% miss chance for special melee attacks performed while specced for Titan's Grip correct? If the base miss chance is 8% and TG adds 5% to the miss chance mustn't it be 13%?

PSGarak · 01/06/09, 3:42 AM

There's more information on the thread on melee hit chance. The current theory, which has partial data backing it, says that TG resets, rather than adjusts, your hit chance. IE, rather than misschance += 5%, it's misschance = 14%. Whenever they changed the melee hit chance, they seem to have forgetten to tell TG. The question will shortly be academic anyways, as the penalty is slated to be removed.

Malthes · 01/06/09, 12:52 PM

Avoidance ratings now suffer from diminishing returns (and a detailed explanation of what that means), and diminishing returns are not the same for all stats.

Is there a thread or other source that actually details the rate of different diminishing returns? I know everybody SAYS that parry is far stiffer than dodge and block, but I crave specifics.

Enova · 01/06/09, 9:33 PM

Originally Posted by Malthes

Is there a thread or other source that actually details the rate of different diminishing returns? I know everybody SAYS that parry is far stiffer than dodge and block, but I crave specifics.

/facepalm

That slipped by my editing as I moved it from the 'to do' list. That should have actually contained the link.

I updated the first post with the link to the Combat Ratings at 80 thread, which actually contains a compilation of sources that back up the formulae contained within. It's not exactly my field of expertise, though, so I will try not to tamper with the data unless I'm damn sure I don't screw up.

Rosamonde · 01/07/09, 1:32 AM

Pets now share the owner's hit ratings. Also, talents increasing hit chance also affect the pets.

[...]
Hunters:
- Pets use the owner's hit rating, and scale in various percentages with their Agility, Strength, Stamina, resistances, AP and Crit;
- Pets DO NOT scale with the owner's haste, resilience or ArP ratings.

These statements are somewhat inaccurate.

Hunter pets DO share their owners' hit rating; however, it has been demonstrated in the hunter forums that Focused Aim (the hunter talent increasing hit chance) does *not* transfer to pets. Also, hit is transferred to pets as an integer, not including any fractions. (For example, 7.99% transfers as 7%, while 8.03% transfers as 8%.)

Hunter pets "inherit" the following stats from their owners: Hit (100%); Ranged Attack Power (22%); Stamina (30%); Armor (35%); and magic resistances. They inherit Agility (and Intellect if you have 3/3 Careful Aim) only indirectly, as it raises the hunter's Attack Power.

Pets do not inherit Strength, Spirit, Crit, Haste, Resilience, or Armor Pen.

Enova · 01/07/09, 4:15 AM

Again, screw up on my behalf. At the time I was gathering the data for this, there was evidence suggesting that at least Careful Aim was applied to the pet. But yes, a quick in game check does confirm I'm really out of the loop again.

Rosamonde · 01/07/09, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Enova

Again, screw up on my behalf. At the time I was gathering the data for this, there was evidence suggesting that at least Careful Aim was applied to the pet. But yes, a quick in game check does confirm I'm really out of the loop again.

I am sorry, but I think you mean Focused Aim rather than Careful Aim in this case. Focused Aim increases chance to hit, while Careful Aim converts Intellect to Attack Power.

(PS I couldn't see how to make the talents display as a mouseover...)

aredna · 01/15/09, 1:09 AM

My Naxx run last night seems to show that the expertise cap for dodge is higher than 25 / 6.25%.

I have Vot3W talent for 6 expertise points and 157 rating for the remaining 19 points needed to reach 25 expertise, however I had 2 melee swings and an Obliterate dodged during our run.

I had the exact spec and gear on that the armory is showing currently. For glyphs, I currently have:
Major: Blood Strike, Icy Touch, and Obliterate
Minor: Raise Dead, Pestilence, and Horn of Winter

I'm new to using WWS so perhaps there is something I'm not aware of could be causing the dodges so I'll post it here for the experts to review.

http://wowwebstats.com/4x5b2owmg2d35

The dodges were at:
02:52'51.068 Darkcaid Obliterate was dodged by Maexxna.
05:11'50.335 Darkcaid attack was dodged by Grobbulus.
06:43'46.247 Darkcaid attack was dodged by Kel’Thuzad #3.

vorda · 01/15/09, 9:39 AM

Sorry guys, couldn't quite decide where to post this:

I was chatting with some guy ingame who kept claiming that additive dps modifiers are better than multiplicative. Now, as I don't fail at basic math I tried to explain him where he is wrong but it just didn't work.
He reads EJ a lot, uses spreadsheets etc so we decided to settle it here. Sorry for wasting your time with this, seems he just doesn't want to believe me for some reason.

So the question: Which matter of scaling increases your dps the most: Additive modifiers or multiplicative modifiers?
(I really tried to explain all the basic stuff, how additive always takes your base dps into account, while multiplicative always works of an already increased value, he just kept saying I was wrong..)

Borodin · 01/15/09, 10:10 AM

Multiplicative.

Consider 2 buffs to damage of "20%":

If these are applied Additively : 100% + 20% + 20% = 140% net damage
If these are applied Multiplicatively: 100% x 1.2 x 1.2 = 144% net damage

This was always an issue for Warriors and their Defensive Stance Threat:

The base was 130% and Defiance said increased threat in Defensive by 15% - Blizzard had stated they applied modifiers multiplicatively which would made the net threat there 149.5%
Some thought it was added on making it 145%.
Small difference on paper but back then Raids were getting threat-capped and it was pretty important really!

Erdluf · 01/15/09, 2:05 PM

Originally Posted by vorda

So the question: Which matter of scaling increases your dps the most: Additive modifiers or multiplicative modifiers?
(I really tried to explain all the basic stuff, how additive always takes your base dps into account, while multiplicative always works of an already increased value, he just kept saying I was wrong..)

In most cases multiplicative is better. There are some rare (and usually unimportant) exceptions.

If for some reason you are currently below 100%, additive is better than multiplicative.

I've got a glyph that reduces my Moonfire direct damage by 90%. My 10% "additve" damage talent ends up doubling my moonfire direct damage (it goes from 10% of normal, to 20% of normal).

Suppose you had a buff that increased healing received by 10%. If you were currently suffering from MS (-50% healing received), you'd prefer that buff to be additive, so that you end up at 60%, rather than 55%.

• frmorrison · 01/15/09, 6:05 PM

Originally Posted by aredna

My Naxx run last night seems to show that the expertise cap for dodge is higher than 25 / 6.25%.

The current cap is 26 exp/6.5% dodge.

aredna · 01/15/09, 6:56 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

The current cap is 26 exp/6.5% dodge.

That would make sense based on the % of attacks I had dodged. Is the OP still around to update the post? It would be good to have the correct value there. Reading the first page provides some confusion as there are several possible values discussed as the current cap.

Enova · 01/18/09, 8:25 AM

Originally Posted by aredna

That would make sense based on the % of attacks I had dodged. Is the OP still around to update the post? It would be good to have the correct value there. Reading the first page provides some confusion as there are several possible values discussed as the current cap.

A bit late, but fixed.

Darian_TruBlade · 01/27/09, 5:23 PM

Slam is a 1.5 second cast untalented, not 2.5 seconds.

jadiel · 01/29/09, 7:41 AM

Originally Posted by Enova

- Swapping weapons resets the swing timer and uses up a GCD.

Has this changed since BC? If not it might be worth clarifying that while swapping weapons starts a GCD, it can be done during a GCD, so combining it with an ability on the gcd allows a switch at no 'cost'. Maybe I'm splitting hairs though.

Might also be worth mentioning (seeing as it's there) that weapon switching cancels any spell you're casting.

nightcrowler · 02/01/09, 4:22 AM

I've done some testing:

2 hours on training dummy in Ironforge (boss level)
1 hours to duo Omen with my discipline wife.

Results different from the original post and something that should be evaluated:

1) Glancing Blow: both test showed 26.1% of glancing blow
2) Critical Strike: both test suggested that vs. a boss you have a reduced critical strike chance (from 4 to 5% i need to do some definitive tests).
3) Expertise hard cap: Has somenone tryied to push the cap and see the results or is only projected data? I've runned with 48 expertise and the parry chance that I've registered is more in line with a 14.5-15% hard cap instead of 16%.
4) Avoidance: it seems that we have lower avoidance vs bosses, other tests should be done but it seems in the order of some few %.