Here's 3 hours of Sartharion +3 drakes attempts and kill from last night. I was 0.05% under the hit cap, 359 rating instead of 361, and you will see there are misses. I'm inclined to believe it's still 9% for melee.
Whether or not Titan's Grip was affected by this is something that's still unknown, hence several of my previous posts. As mentioned above, if TG special miss is hard coded at 14%, not as physical miss + 5%, then a change to base physical miss wouldn't affect it, and TG would effectively be +6% miss on specials. Your example is another in favor of 13.x% being insufficient for TG warriors. However, the evidence in favor of 8% physical miss is extremely compelling right now, which leads me to believe TG giving +6% is the case, and needs to be brought to Blizzard's attention.
@ithecho: That's definitely a possibility. A little sad for him to be raiding without maxes weapon skill, but I'd be lying if I said I hadn't done it once or twice. It would invalidate the report though.
[edit] The alternative conclusion from the tests favoring 8% physical miss is that the boss level dummies are not actually acting like boss level mobs, and all the hunter, etc., data from raids is just too small of a sample set. Certainly possible, but also an issue that needs to be brought up.
[edit2] I just looked through the WWS report, and all the misses I see on specials are parries. Did I miss something?
How? Crushing blows were able to be toggled on and off for specific bosses prior to WotLK, presumably (though there's no hard evidence, and now never will be) without effecting miss rates. Why would turning them off for all bosses effect a (theoretically) independent attribute?
I may be wrong about the following, but I'm fairly certain it was clearly established during the beta that Blizzard didn't simply turn crushing blows off for bosses, but modified the fundamental game mechanics. Whereas previously a mob would have to be 3 or more levels higher to be able to land crushing blows, it was changed to be 4 or more levels.
That kind of mechanics change can conceivably have affected the melee hit cap, given that it directly involves the resolution of the melee hit tables.
What I lack in intelligence I make up for in verbosity.
[edit2] I just looked through the WWS report, and all the misses I see on specials are parries. Did I miss something?
(Quoted to clarify this is in response to LodeRunner's WWS in the post after)
I only see Parries on specials too, easy to miss though as they show up in the confusingly named composite missed/avoided column "Missed%".
Of course that doesn't eliminate the possibility of Titan's Grip being hardcoded at something else than normal melee special miss + 5, but I'm happy enough with not getting evidence pointing directly towards that being the case.
Now that you mention it, I do remember reading that crushing was changed to 4+ level difference. The melee hit table is different for NPCs attacking PCs than it is for PCs attacking NPCs (e.g., crushing only ever shows up at any level difference in the former, and glancing only shows up at any level difference in the latter), but I see what you're saying. All the more reason to see if this is affecting hit tables other than just generic melee 9%!
I don't see what wrong with testing on dummies.
As far as the hunter tests are concerned, so far everything from dummy testing agrees with WWS reports on actual bosses that hit cap seems to be 8% for both the pet and the hunter.
There are some further testing being done right now as to how hunter's hit is transfered to the pet.
Some tests show that once you are under 8% (even by 1 hit rating), pet loses 1% hit, which would indicate that hunter hit % is transferred to the pet rounded down.
A Blelf Paladin guildie of mine just spend half an hour hitting the dummy and got a single miss at 7.2% hit, after doing 700 swings. He's not as rigorous as you and simply verified that he could miss at that level of rating, but based on your results and his I'm inclined to estimate that the actual value is closer to 7.5% base miss than 8% base miss for (Retribution) paladins.
I did 781 swings, this time with 5.9% hit gear and had 3 misses on swings and 2 judgements misses out of 501. I am pretty sure the same bug was around in 3.0, that Precision (3% melee hit) was not removed.
If your Pally didn't have Precision pre-3.0, you lose that "ghost hit". Another interesting thing about this Precision is it is only gain 3% with weapon attacks, so I know Shield of the Righteous (you hit with the shield), which can be used disarmed, is not affected by the 3% hit. It is possible Judgement is not affected as well.
Basically, I believe that the dual-wielding penality against a level 83 boss mob is now 27%, down from 28% during WOTLK. This would certainly be consistent with the data discovered about specials and single-wielding miss rate.
While this is certainly interesting, I wanted to point out one other piece of information that was more glaring: my observed crit chance was ~4.5% lower than my character sheet crit chance. (In BC, this value was believed to be just a 0.6% loss in crit chance against boss mobs -- or at least, that is the value that the rogue community had been using.) Has anyone else noticed this?
Also, one other note I'd like to add is that I clearly observe misses with 4.06% hit against the level 80 test dummy (and observed none with 5.06%). This suggests that miss chance has NOT changed against equal level targets, only against higher level targets.
Basically, I believe that the dual-wielding penality against a level 83 boss mob is now 27%, down from 28% during WOTLK. This would certainly be consistent with the data discovered about specials and single-wielding miss rate.
While this is certainly interesting, I wanted to point out one other piece of information that was more glaring: my observed crit chance was ~4.5% lower than my character sheet crit chance. (In BC, this value was believed to be just a 0.6% loss in crit chance against boss mobs -- or at least, that is the value that the rogue community had been using.) Has anyone else noticed this?
Also, one other note I'd like to add is that I clearly observe misses with 4.06% hit against the level 80 test dummy (and observed none with 5.06%). This suggests that miss chance has NOT changed against equal level targets, only against higher level targets.
This goes along with what I was trying to say in the Fury Warrior DPS thread, Blizzard seems to have changed the formula for base miss against +3 mobs but not the formula for equal level, +1, +2, etc.
You don't have a single miss over the entire night that isn't white swings.
If you click the collumn and click out miss/parry etc you'll find that the only mitigated specials you had were parries, which makes perfect sense considering how its likely you end up hitting some of the drakes in their head depending on strategy.
I'm still not sure. I tried to go down to 8,17% hit to test on the IF Boss dummy and after 3 hits I got a miss. However at 9% I've conducted over an hour of specials on the dummy without a single miss.
All my dummy testing so far indicates 8% is the hit cap. I'll edit this post with a WWS soon.
Here it is, testing done with 8.14% hit on the skull level target dummy in Ebon Hold: Wow Web Stats
Not exactly the largest sample size, but I think I would have gotten a miss in 160 white swings if I had 0.86% to miss.
Originally Posted by ildon
It's starting to look to me like using boss level target dummies to test hit rating may be a mistake.
There should be no difference in chance to miss on a boss level target dummy vs a boss in a raid. I have seen nothing but WWS logs of raids which support the theory that 8% is the actual hit cap, however. I'd contribute some myself but i've been raiding with over 9% hit.
While this is certainly interesting, I wanted to point out one other piece of information that was more glaring: my observed crit chance was ~4.5% lower than my character sheet crit chance. (In BC, this value was believed to be just a 0.6% loss in crit chance against boss mobs -- or at least, that is the value that the rogue community had been using.) Has anyone else noticed this?
Toskk came to this same conclusion in TBC. So, perhaps the value has not changed in WotLK. I'm not sure if other classes have been adjusting for this, but feral calculators have been for some time. I cannot find the exact thread, but he confirmed actual crit chance to be somewhere between 4-5% below character crit.
Last night I spent some time on the Heroic Training Dummy in Orgrimmar (this is the level 83 dummy right?). I removed all of my hit and expertise gear.
2065 melee swings with weapon skill at 400
936 Hit (45.3%)
489 Glancing (23.7%)
423 Crit (20.5%)
109 Dodge (5.3%)
108 Miss (5.2%)
After about 1200 swings my Miss seemed to always stay around 5.5%. It would dip down to as low as 5.2% and would go has high 5.8%, but then it would always come back to 5.5%. I just happened to end the test when I did because I was tired and wanted to go to sleep. As previously mentioned I've raided with as low as 7.01% hit didn't see any misses. As soon as I can find some gear with less hit on it I'm going to run with it and see how low I can go before misses start to show up in my combat log.
There should be no difference in chance to miss on a boss level target dummy vs a boss in a raid. I have seen nothing but WWS logs of raids which support the theory that 8% is the actual hit cap, however. I'd contribute some myself but i've been raiding with over 9% hit.
I could very well think there is a possible issues with target dummies. Just remember, before WotLK hit, they introduced the target dummies while still being level 70. And although the boss target dummies claimed to be of "boss" level (meaning player level + 3), they were indeed level 83 targets (resulting in absurd miss and glancing chances on level 70).
The same goes for Alliance/Horde leaders, their description was boss and their true level 83.
All other "boss" type mobs were still level 73 though, so there already were different mechanics at work and maybe still are.
Call me a doubter on this notion but running 10.09% as a TG warrior on monday I was seeing misses. If the 8% was correct then I should never see a miss as 8%(proposed base miss %) + 5% = 13% which I have with 10.09% + 3% from talents = 13.09%.
Was your weapon skills maxed? Also, could ya link the gear you used, since your gear looks different now.
It looks like your only misses of the night came on Sapphiron try 1 and the Sapphiron kill, so something happened between that time and the rest of the night that made you stop missing. If you were 1% below the hit cap and the supposed TG cap is still 14%, thats not right either. You may have gotten very unlucky, but you had way more misses than what 1% would see. This honestly leads me to believe that your weapon skill wasn't maxed out or something.
I could very well think there is a possible issues with target dummies. Just remember, before WotLK hit, they introduced the target dummies while still being level 70. And although the boss target dummies claimed to be of "boss" level (meaning player level + 3), they were indeed level 83 targets (resulting in absurd miss and glancing chances on level 70).
The same goes for Alliance/Horde leaders, their description was boss and their true level 83.
All other "boss" type mobs were still level 73 though, so there already were different mechanics at work and maybe still are.
Very good point. I remember this myself, actually. Still, since bosses are (widely accepted to be, at least) level 83 anyway there should be no issues, right?
I'll try to drop under 9% hit for Naxx next week and post the entire log here. Would really like to see some logs of long raids with people with between 8% and 9% before then, though, as I don't actually have any gear to swap in ;x
http://wowwebstats.com/ms53evhulimky
On that wws I had 13,71% hit and 6.25% dodge reduction.
The dodge part worked perfectly as I had 0,1%-0,3% dodged attacks on various bosses which confirms the 6.5% cap for dodged attacks, nothing new here.
When I checked the report I saw there was a few misses on special attacks so I assumed everything was working alright and at 13,71% I could still miss. Then reading this thread and other warriors saying they dont miss with less I went to check the wws again and noticed that the only special attacks I missed were at Archavon the Stone Watcher. Also if you looks swings miss rate it was susbtantially higher against Archavon than all the other Naxxramas bosses. Which is surprising too.
Wow Web Stats
On that wws I had 13,71% hit and 6.25% dodge reduction.
The dodge part worked perfectly as I had 0,1%-0,3% dodged attacks on various bosses which confirms the 6.5% cap for dodged attacks, nothing new here.
When I checked the report I saw there was a few misses on special attacks so I assumed everything was working alright and at 13,71% I could still miss. Then reading this thread and other warriors saying they dont miss with less I went to check the wws again and noticed that the only special attacks I missed were at Archavon the Stone Watcher. Also if you looks swings miss rate it was susbtantially higher against Archavon than all the other Naxxramas bosses. Which is surprising too.
With Archavon charging around, I wonder if the misses reported were actually parries while you were in his frontal arc...
If you are standing in Archavon's cloud not only do you take DoT damage, but it applies a 50% miss debuff. If you are trying to test the hit cap you cannot include this boss as obviously the debuff will mess with your results.
here is a WWS from a 10 man naxx tonight, not of me (I was tanking and swapping between my tank set with 4.32% hit and my DPS set with over 9%), but of the other DK in the raid. He has 7.53% hit.
12/04/08, 3:22 PM
It would invalidate the report though.
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