Is melee hit cap really 9%? - Page 3

ildon · 12/04/08, 9:13 PM

It's starting to look to me like using boss level target dummies to test hit rating may be a mistake.

sihyunie · 12/04/08, 11:12 PM

I don't see what wrong with testing on dummies.
As far as the hunter tests are concerned, so far everything from dummy testing agrees with WWS reports on actual bosses that hit cap seems to be 8% for both the pet and the hunter.
There are some further testing being done right now as to how hunter's hit is transfered to the pet.
Some tests show that once you are under 8% (even by 1 hit rating), pet loses 1% hit, which would indicate that hunter hit % is transferred to the pet rounded down.

• frmorrison · 12/05/08, 1:06 AM

Originally Posted by Xerophyte

A Blelf Paladin guildie of mine just spend half an hour hitting the dummy and got a single miss at 7.2% hit, after doing 700 swings. He's not as rigorous as you and simply verified that he could miss at that level of rating, but based on your results and his I'm inclined to estimate that the actual value is closer to 7.5% base miss than 8% base miss for (Retribution) paladins.

I did 781 swings, this time with 5.9% hit gear and had 3 misses on swings and 2 judgements misses out of 501. I am pretty sure the same bug was around in 3.0, that Precision (3% melee hit) was not removed.

If your Pally didn't have Precision pre-3.0, you lose that "ghost hit". Another interesting thing about this Precision is it is only gain 3% with weapon attacks, so I know Shield of the Righteous (you hit with the shield), which can be used disarmed, is not affected by the 3% hit. It is possible Judgement is not affected as well.

drumbum · 12/05/08, 6:41 AM

I'd like to bring attention to some data I collected for testing the dual wield autoattack miss rate. You can find the post here:

Retesting hit table assumptions

Basically, I believe that the dual-wielding penality against a level 83 boss mob is now 27%, down from 28% during WOTLK. This would certainly be consistent with the data discovered about specials and single-wielding miss rate.

While this is certainly interesting, I wanted to point out one other piece of information that was more glaring: my observed crit chance was ~4.5% lower than my character sheet crit chance. (In BC, this value was believed to be just a 0.6% loss in crit chance against boss mobs -- or at least, that is the value that the rogue community had been using.) Has anyone else noticed this?

Also, one other note I'd like to add is that I clearly observe misses with 4.06% hit against the level 80 test dummy (and observed none with 5.06%). This suggests that miss chance has NOT changed against equal level targets, only against higher level targets.

brutalbovine · 12/05/08, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by drumbum

I'd like to bring attention to some data I collected for testing the dual wield autoattack miss rate. You can find the post here:

Retesting hit table assumptions

Basically, I believe that the dual-wielding penality against a level 83 boss mob is now 27%, down from 28% during WOTLK. This would certainly be consistent with the data discovered about specials and single-wielding miss rate.

While this is certainly interesting, I wanted to point out one other piece of information that was more glaring: my observed crit chance was ~4.5% lower than my character sheet crit chance. (In BC, this value was believed to be just a 0.6% loss in crit chance against boss mobs -- or at least, that is the value that the rogue community had been using.) Has anyone else noticed this?

Also, one other note I'd like to add is that I clearly observe misses with 4.06% hit against the level 80 test dummy (and observed none with 5.06%). This suggests that miss chance has NOT changed against equal level targets, only against higher level targets.

This goes along with what I was trying to say in the Fury Warrior DPS thread, Blizzard seems to have changed the formula for base miss against +3 mobs but not the formula for equal level, +1, +2, etc.

Vhad · 12/05/08, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by LodeRunner

Woops Wow Web Stats

You don't have a single miss over the entire night that isn't white swings.

If you click the collumn and click out miss/parry etc you'll find that the only mitigated specials you had were parries, which makes perfect sense considering how its likely you end up hitting some of the drakes in their head depending on strategy.

I'm still not sure. I tried to go down to 8,17% hit to test on the IF Boss dummy and after 3 hits I got a miss. However at 9% I've conducted over an hour of specials on the dummy without a single miss.

wow · 12/05/08, 2:44 PM

All my dummy testing so far indicates 8% is the hit cap. I'll edit this post with a WWS soon.

Here it is, testing done with 8.14% hit on the skull level target dummy in Ebon Hold:
Wow Web Stats

Not exactly the largest sample size, but I think I would have gotten a miss in 160 white swings if I had 0.86% to miss.

Originally Posted by ildon

It's starting to look to me like using boss level target dummies to test hit rating may be a mistake.

There should be no difference in chance to miss on a boss level target dummy vs a boss in a raid. I have seen nothing but WWS logs of raids which support the theory that 8% is the actual hit cap, however. I'd contribute some myself but i've been raiding with over 9% hit.

Mijae · 12/05/08, 4:02 PM

Originally Posted by drumbum

While this is certainly interesting, I wanted to point out one other piece of information that was more glaring: my observed crit chance was ~4.5% lower than my character sheet crit chance. (In BC, this value was believed to be just a 0.6% loss in crit chance against boss mobs -- or at least, that is the value that the rogue community had been using.) Has anyone else noticed this?

Toskk came to this same conclusion in TBC. So, perhaps the value has not changed in WotLK. I'm not sure if other classes have been adjusting for this, but feral calculators have been for some time. I cannot find the exact thread, but he confirmed actual crit chance to be somewhere between 4-5% below character crit.

The Druid Wiki � ToskksDPSData
The Druid Wiki � ToskksDPSGearMethod

In his note at the bottom of the second page, he averaged it to 4.2% crit reduction. Other places I have seen use 4.4%.

Canada42 · 12/05/08, 5:00 PM

Just finished parsing. Test was done on the Boss target dummy in Ebon Hold with a lvl 80 Undead DK. Hit rating was 268 (8.17%).

1000 Melee white swings with the Runeblade of Demonstrable Power.

523 Hit (52.3%)
234 Glancing (23.4%)
187 Crit (18.7%)
56 Dodge (5.6%)

No misses over 1000 swings with 8.17% hit, looks like it is indeed 8% now, or at the very least lower than 9%

Kinmaul · 12/05/08, 6:58 PM

Last night I spent some time on the Heroic Training Dummy in Orgrimmar (this is the level 83 dummy right?). I removed all of my hit and expertise gear.

2065 melee swings with weapon skill at 400

936 Hit (45.3%)
489 Glancing (23.7%)
423 Crit (20.5%)
109 Dodge (5.3%)
108 Miss (5.2%)

After about 1200 swings my Miss seemed to always stay around 5.5%. It would dip down to as low as 5.2% and would go has high 5.8%, but then it would always come back to 5.5%. I just happened to end the test when I did because I was tired and wanted to go to sleep. As previously mentioned I've raided with as low as 7.01% hit didn't see any misses. As soon as I can find some gear with less hit on it I'm going to run with it and see how low I can go before misses start to show up in my combat log.

germonik · 12/06/08, 12:41 AM

I did about 4 hours of Naxx last night at 10.37% hit (as a TG warrior), I didn't see a single special miss.

Here is a WWS.

Also, I did some testing on a target dummy in the same gear.

I am fairly comfortable with rolling with 10% hit at the moment, I will post a WWS if I observe a miss.

Vhad · 12/06/08, 5:04 AM

I did all of naxx10 yesterday with 9,30% hit. Wow Web Stats

As you can see, not a single miss on specials, only parries on stuff that moves around like Heigan and trash.

sp00n · 12/06/08, 6:37 AM

Originally Posted by wow

There should be no difference in chance to miss on a boss level target dummy vs a boss in a raid. I have seen nothing but WWS logs of raids which support the theory that 8% is the actual hit cap, however. I'd contribute some myself but i've been raiding with over 9% hit.

I could very well think there is a possible issues with target dummies. Just remember, before WotLK hit, they introduced the target dummies while still being level 70. And although the boss target dummies claimed to be of "boss" level (meaning player level + 3), they were indeed level 83 targets (resulting in absurd miss and glancing chances on level 70).

The same goes for Alliance/Horde leaders, their description was boss and their true level 83.

All other "boss" type mobs were still level 73 though, so there already were different mechanics at work and maybe still are.

Healranktwo · 12/06/08, 6:49 AM

Originally Posted by Daronsk

Call me a doubter on this notion but running 10.09% as a TG warrior on monday I was seeing misses. If the 8% was correct then I should never see a miss as 8%(proposed base miss %) + 5% = 13% which I have with 10.09% + 3% from talents = 13.09%.

WWS I'm basing this off...
Wow Web Stats

Was your weapon skills maxed? Also, could ya link the gear you used, since your gear looks different now.

It looks like your only misses of the night came on Sapphiron try 1 and the Sapphiron kill, so something happened between that time and the rest of the night that made you stop missing. If you were 1% below the hit cap and the supposed TG cap is still 14%, thats not right either. You may have gotten very unlucky, but you had way more misses than what 1% would see. This honestly leads me to believe that your weapon skill wasn't maxed out or something.

wow · 12/06/08, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by sp00n

I could very well think there is a possible issues with target dummies. Just remember, before WotLK hit, they introduced the target dummies while still being level 70. And although the boss target dummies claimed to be of "boss" level (meaning player level + 3), they were indeed level 83 targets (resulting in absurd miss and glancing chances on level 70).

The same goes for Alliance/Horde leaders, their description was boss and their true level 83.

All other "boss" type mobs were still level 73 though, so there already were different mechanics at work and maybe still are.

Very good point. I remember this myself, actually. Still, since bosses are (widely accepted to be, at least) level 83 anyway there should be no issues, right?

I'll try to drop under 9% hit for Naxx next week and post the entire log here. Would really like to see some logs of long raids with people with between 8% and 9% before then, though, as I don't actually have any gear to swap in ;x