Roywyn

So, what do we know so far with certainty for attacks against boss mobs?

Known Hit
8% is the hit cap for ranged attacks, melee specials and white attacks with one weapon.
13% is the hit cap for melee specials with Titan's Grip.

8% is also the miss rate for pets. Focused Aim is acting funny with pets, not granting the pet hit chance if you have little hit rating
It does nothing if you have a significant amount of hit rating on gear. Most likely a bug.

Dodge rate of any attack vs. bosses is just under 6.5%.
Estimated around 6.45%, so you'll want 6.5% reduction from expertise anyway.


Known Crit

Your crit rate for white melee attacks against bosses is reduced by exactly 4.8%.


Unknown Crit

All ranged attacks seem to be reduced by an about 5%.

Crit rate for melee special attacks seems mostly unchanged from your paper doll crit rate. Possibly a 0.6% reduction due to weapon skill difference.

Source Retesting hit table assumptions


Unknown Hit

What is the hit cap for white attacks while dual-wielding? 27% or 28%, there is conflicting data.
It' is very likely 27% with recent testing.

Paladins seem to get 3% melee hit from some unknown source. Possibly only if they specced into Precision before 3.0.
Judgements count as ranged attacks though, so they need 5% hit for melee but 8% for judgements.
(That is if I understood their threads correctly.)


Glancing/Dodge

White melee attacks have a 24% chance to glance.
Exact average damage is not known to me, but around 75% of a normal white hit.

Dodge chance is higher than 6.25%, but not higher than 6.5%.


Unknown Parry

Ballpark ~13% vs. bosses is all I know.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

sihyunie

Wasn't there an early test showing that dual-wielding has 27% hit cap, but TG specials have 14% hit cap?
It's either in in this thread, or the hit rating thread in the hunter forum, but I can't remember which off the top of my head at the moment.
I'll look into the crit problem myself as well, but considering paladin hit shenanigans and this weird reported crit chances, I'm more inclined to believe that there was some coding error for the hit table.

 

• Aldriana

Rogue testing (here) indicates that the reduction for melee white attacks appears to be 4.8% with a very high degree of confidence.

 

• frmorrison

There are a few logs of Paladins without Precision pre-3.0 showing a 8% miss rate, so Precision is the source.

Judgement appears to have a slightly higher miss rate than melee, but no where close to a 3% difference.


I have a 6% miss rate on target dummies, and I am unsure about Judgements.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Writhe

This could explain how we are seeing a critical hit percentage reduction while attacking bosses as well. I am seeing this as the most likely cause. Surprised nobody else has replied to this post.


What levels of defense are required for -4.5% crit and +6.5% dodge?

The relative uncertainty and non-whole numbers all point to a scaling avoidance issue in my opinion. Maybe blizz dropped the ball and didn't increase bosses innate avoidance this expac? Perhaps it was intended.

Who pulled the surger with the core hound?

 

PSGarak

If I understand it right, diminishing returns apply to the ratings conversion into defense skill, not to defense skill itself or the percentage reductions it entails. Bosses aren't level 80 mobs with rating equivalent to 15 defense skill, they're level 83 mobs with base defense skill (or are they?). Diminishing returns shouldn't be creeping into their stats unless they've been hand-adjusted, and even then I think it's more likely the percentages rather than ratings have been tuned manually.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Writhe

Diminishing returns are applied to non-passive avoidance not defense rating to skill conversions.

TankSpot (Satrina) on Avoidance DR's

Who pulled the surger with the core hound?

 

Exemplar

Diminishing returns, even if present, knocking off exactly 1.00% would be stretching credulity. It would more likely be a fraction. Testing is showing an exact 1.00% reduction in hit cap from previous (9% to 8%).

 

Writhe

Maybe DR constants and caps were derived from this 1%. They came from somewhere to start with, although it was most probably pulled out of someones ass we can't discredit the possibility, that is, until somebody shows us npc boss stats and attributes or at least the constants and avoidance caps. I'm not too good with math so I think I shall leave the rest of the discussion up to you guys. I just thought the idea brought in from Sydane was pretty interesting in theory and wanted to explore it a little.

Who pulled the surger with the core hound?

 

Darian_TruBlade

Attempting to use defense to measure these changes doesn't work under the models I'm aware of. -4.5% crit doesn't correspond to a whole number defense (112.5). 6.5% dodge is also a non-whole defense number (162.5). In any case, 6.5% dodge was the norm at 70 as well, I don't think anything's changed there.

Additionally, the equation for hit chance is listed as follows from Wowwiki:

Defense Skill - Weapon Skill < 10: 5% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill)*.1%
Defense Skill - Weapon Skill > 10: 7% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill - 10)*.4%

You can't reduce hit by exactly 1% via Defense or Weapon Skill against bosses. Either that 7% was changed to a 6%, the equations have changed, or you can't look at defense for the answer to the hit issue.

What might be useful would be to use an up and coming DK still leveling in Outland to take a large number of swings at a level 70 target dummy at various levels. If miss rates at 67 and below fit the equation while still showing the mysterious 1% hit change then we'll have at least narrowed things down slightly. Alternatively, we might find something we've overlooked.

"A man's IQ, yearly income, sexual prowess, ingenuity, physical appearance and generally every other aspect of his character can be condensed down to four digits: his Arena rating." - Zechsy [70 Rogue - Skullcrusher (EU) - 10/23/2007]

 

PSGarak

We don't know that the reduction is exactly 1% to n decimal places. That's just the closest nice round number we've gotten. Likewise, someone stated mob dodge is around 6.35% or so, but since anywhere between 6.25% and 6.5% doesn't make a difference for us we just say 6.5%. We know these values to a ballpark, don't take them to be exact, and don't take their exactness as implications of the underlying mechanics.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Revart

So I have a prediction and this may only apply to paladins (I'm not familiar with other class talents). I think that maybe passive haste buffs are bugged and somehow increasing your chance to hit a little math could prove this.

So if you have a 3.6 speed weapon in 60s you'll attack roughly 16.6 times at 9% to miss you'll miss about 1.4 times
Now with the 3% passive haste from imp ret aura, your attack speed would be about 3.49 allowing for about 17.1 attacks but if the game is still only missing 1.4 attacks you would only be missing 8.1% of the time. Further if you had imp windfury totem with you and this held true, you would only miss 6.4% of the time. I'm thinking this only goes for direct % in attack speed.

Now lets use this vs. the crit problem
Same 60s with 3.6 speed weapon and 30% to crit you should crit 4.9 times
But if you are still only critting 4.9 times with your weapon speed at 2.77 your crit chance would be a mere 22.6%


these are rough numbers I just pounded out on a calculator I have no real evidence to prove this but I have a 5% passive buff on my DK and I notice fewer misses and crits than expected as well.

 

Maahk

I also am a DK with passive haste. I don't have any additional information as to whether haste is the source of the reduction in hit % needed to become unable to miss, but I can confirm that I have been melee hit capped at below 9%.

My WWS from last night, sitting at 290 hit shows 0 misses: WWS - Naxx Spider through Gothik (Note: my armory doesn't reflect the gear worn during this parse.)

 

vytautas

12k white hits vs the boss level testing dummy.





Fairly standarad Arms raiding spec explaining the 15.05% crit on character screen rather than 5.05%. Vast majority of the information seems within accepted levels other than the Miss Rate, I have no head for maths so I couldn't tell you whether that being off .3% or .7% is off by any unusual level for that sample size but hopefully it helps people out in some way.

About to raid now, after I'll try and get another 10k hits in with a 2H weapon and I'll spam some specials too.

 

Bloodvalor

Here is the testing I had done. Blood Elf Ret Paladin, had precision pre patch 3.0

Redcape's Ret DPS Calculator (New edition out 04/05/09 v2.5)
Redcape's Ret DPS Calculator (New edition out 04/05/09 v2.5)
Redcape's Ret DPS Calculator (New edition out 04/05/09 v2.5)

The last one pretty much proves IMO that Ret Paladins ARE NOT getting any banked +hit from CURRENT talents.

 

Revart

Ok so after some testing I have some interesting results!

At lvl72 I tested against the level 75 target dummy in Ebon Hold with no gear and a white 3.8 speed Axe according to (Miss - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft) I should have a 9% chance to miss

If there is a bug from the removal of the 1% spell miss and melee is capped at 8% my original predictions hold true

after testing 100, 200, then 300, totaling 600 hits My miss rates were as followed (on average)

At 3.62 Weapon speed I missed only 7.1% of the time
At 3.15 Weapon speed I missed only 6.3% of the time

3.62 weapon speed is from the passive 5% from imp icy talons
3.15 weapon speed is from the passive 5% from imp icy talons plus 15% from unholy aura

Now lets test this against my earlier math in 60s a 3.8 speed weapon should hit 15.7 times and at 8% miss, miss 1.2 times
If for some reason WoW is only calculating misses at 3.8 speed my miss chance should be....

7.2% at 3.62 weapon speed
6.3% at 3.15 weapon speed

Amazing! This is showing that passive haste effects increase your chance to hit!

heres my maths
(60/3.80)-(8%)=1.2 (Number of Misses in 60 seconds rounded down)
1.2*100/16.5= 7.1 (percent of misses in 60 seconds at 3.62 weapon speed)
1.2*100/19.04= 6.3 (percent of misses in 60 seconds at 3.15 weapon speed)

If this is somehow true that means that a shamans windfury totem would be worth 1.7% to hit as well

This is on the assumption though that there is currently bug making the hit cap 8% my numbers get skewed a little(but not much) at 9%

 

Writhe

We don't know if it is a bug, no blues have confirmed this, it may very well be intended. I assume they are watching and probably trying to figure out a hot fix if it is in fact a bug.

WWS?

Could you also explain your math a little more. For the life of me none of it makes any sense.

Your sample size is highly suspect. As is why you rounded 1.26 down to 1.2. I may just be dumb, but I don't have a clue where this 16.5 and 19.04 came from, why are you using 1.2 in the lower speed weapons 'calculations' when they will have a different number of misses / hits per minute purely because they hit more often.

Who pulled the surger with the core hound?

 

Revart

Basically in 60 seconds with a weapon swinging at 3.8 speed you will get 15.4 weapon swings and if you miss 8% of those swings you will miss 1.2 swings

at 3.62 weapon speed you will swing 16.5 times in 60 seconds
and 3.15 you will swing 19.04 times in 60 seconds

if the game calculates your miss rate at the original speed of you weapon you would still only miss 1.2 times in 60 seconds my test data supports this

Basically if you have a 3.8 weapon and no hit rating you will miss 1.2 times every 60 seconds equaling 8%

If you reduce the speed to 3.15 through a passive haste talent and/or ability (such as unholy aura+ imp icy talons) you should miss 1.52380... times in 60 seconds equaling an 8% chance to miss but that is not the case you still only miss 1.2 times equaling 6.3%

it would work the same with 10000 seconds at 3.8 you would hit 2631.6 times and at 8% to miss you would miss 210 times.

In the same 10000 seconds with a weapon hasted to 3.15 seconds you would hit 3174.6 times and with no hit rating you should miss 253.9 times but data is showing you would still only miss about 210 times I'm working on a long term test of this.

 

Writhe

Ah right, thanks, like proc per minute mechanics. Makes sense.

Oh yea I was meant to test this wasn't I better go set Boo attacking while I'm working.

Who pulled the surger with the core hound?

 

Revart

one of the first series of test currently preforming a very prolonged test but this shows the lower miss % with the increased weapon speed

[EDIT]: so I logged in and there was a patch with no notes...hotfix? Because now I'm sitting at 9% miss. and my SS which is one of around 9 totaling around 2000 hits average the same results but now after...692 and counting exactly 9%. Huh.

 

Writhe

I'm at around 400 hits currently, and around 10% miss rate on auto attack, keep going I don't see these low number tests being very conclusive. 7/100 misses is an entire percentage different to 8/100..

Easiest way to test would be to throw on 270-280 (well passed the 8%) hit rating and seeing if you miss ever.

Also I noticed a download yesterday, don't think it was related. A hotfix of this nature is server side (changing boss stats, game mechanics and calculations).

Update:
600, closing in on 9% now.

Update:
800 Back up around 10% now

Update:
1000 Back down to 9.1%

Who pulled the surger with the core hound?

 

• Aldriana

Please note that it takes thousands if not tens of thousands of hits to get the margin of error on a miss right to a level that's significant, so I would hesitate to drawn any conclusions about the mechanics until such largescale tests can be performed.

 

Writhe

I would say closer to the 100's of thousands if not millions if you want to nit pick, but I don't have that much time to test this without running some sort of anti-afk bot. Averaging out everyones small results is probably the best we can do without breaking the ToS.

Who pulled the surger with the core hound?

 

kbranch

The game actually won't log you out if you're in combat, I was able to run a roughly 9 hour test (link) a few weeks ago on a heroic target dummy. Your gear will break after a few hours, but you should be able to let a naked test run for as long as you want.

 

• Aldriana

The game has started logging me out in combat in the past week or so - I don't know if it's just me, but it may be the case that AFKing overnight isn't as viable a technique as it used to be.

That said, it's also perfectly reasonable to take a few parses with identical gear on consecutive nights (or whatever) to get the necessary data size. And yes, hundreds of thousands would be better, but I think we could make some pretty good initial estimates off 25000 swings, which isn't too unreasonable to put together.