Is melee hit cap really 9%? - Page 4

Origence · 12/06/08, 3:37 PM

http://wowwebstats.com/ms53evhulimky
On that wws I had 13,71% hit and 6.25% dodge reduction.
The dodge part worked perfectly as I had 0,1%-0,3% dodged attacks on various bosses which confirms the 6.5% cap for dodged attacks, nothing new here.
When I checked the report I saw there was a few misses on special attacks so I assumed everything was working alright and at 13,71% I could still miss. Then reading this thread and other warriors saying they dont miss with less I went to check the wws again and noticed that the only special attacks I missed were at Archavon the Stone Watcher. Also if you looks swings miss rate it was susbtantially higher against Archavon than all the other Naxxramas bosses. Which is surprising too.

Arakas · 12/06/08, 3:50 PM

Originally Posted by Origence

Wow Web Stats
On that wws I had 13,71% hit and 6.25% dodge reduction.
The dodge part worked perfectly as I had 0,1%-0,3% dodged attacks on various bosses which confirms the 6.5% cap for dodged attacks, nothing new here.
When I checked the report I saw there was a few misses on special attacks so I assumed everything was working alright and at 13,71% I could still miss. Then reading this thread and other warriors saying they dont miss with less I went to check the wws again and noticed that the only special attacks I missed were at Archavon the Stone Watcher. Also if you looks swings miss rate it was susbtantially higher against Archavon than all the other Naxxramas bosses. Which is surprising too.

With Archavon charging around, I wonder if the misses reported were actually parries while you were in his frontal arc...

Roywyn · 12/06/08, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by Origence

Wow Web Stats

Stuff about misses on Archavon.

Check your debuffs and you find Wow Web Stats

Clicking through wowhead leads to Choking Cloud - Spell - World of Warcraft, so Archavon is useless for hit rating checks.

Kinmaul · 12/06/08, 4:53 PM

If you are standing in Archavon's cloud not only do you take DoT damage, but it applies a 50% miss debuff. If you are trying to test the hit cap you cannot include this boss as obviously the debuff will mess with your results.

wow · 12/07/08, 3:03 AM

here is a WWS from a 10 man naxx tonight, not of me (I was tanking and swapping between my tank set with 4.32% hit and my DPS set with over 9%), but of the other DK in the raid. He has 7.53% hit.

Wow Web Stats

He's just about right on the money for his miss chance on every melee attack. Personally i'm convinced.

Roywyn · 12/07/08, 6:36 AM

So, what do we know so far with certainty for attacks against boss mobs?

Known Hit
8% is the hit cap for ranged attacks, melee specials and white attacks with one weapon.
13% is the hit cap for melee specials with Titan's Grip.

8% is also the miss rate for pets. Focused Aim is acting funny with pets, not granting the pet hit chance if you have little hit rating
It does nothing if you have a significant amount of hit rating on gear. Most likely a bug.

Dodge rate of any attack vs. bosses is just under 6.5%.
Estimated around 6.45%, so you'll want 6.5% reduction from expertise anyway.

Known Crit

Your crit rate for white melee attacks against bosses is reduced by exactly 4.8%.

Unknown Crit

All ranged attacks seem to be reduced by an about 5%.

Crit rate for melee special attacks seems mostly unchanged from your paper doll crit rate. Possibly a 0.6% reduction due to weapon skill difference.

Source Retesting hit table assumptions

Unknown Hit

What is the hit cap for white attacks while dual-wielding? 27% or 28%, there is conflicting data.
It' is very likely 27% with recent testing.

Paladins seem to get 3% melee hit from some unknown source. Possibly only if they specced into Precision before 3.0.
Judgements count as ranged attacks though, so they need 5% hit for melee but 8% for judgements.
(That is if I understood their threads correctly.)

Glancing/Dodge

White melee attacks have a 24% chance to glance.
Exact average damage is not known to me, but around 75% of a normal white hit.

Dodge chance is higher than 6.25%, but not higher than 6.5%.

Unknown Parry

Ballpark ~13% vs. bosses is all I know.

sihyunie · 12/07/08, 7:13 PM

Wasn't there an early test showing that dual-wielding has 27% hit cap, but TG specials have 14% hit cap?
It's either in in this thread, or the hit rating thread in the hunter forum, but I can't remember which off the top of my head at the moment.
I'll look into the crit problem myself as well, but considering paladin hit shenanigans and this weird reported crit chances, I'm more inclined to believe that there was some coding error for the hit table.

• Aldriana · 12/08/08, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Known/Unknown Crit
Your crit rate for white attacks against and is reduced by about 4.5% (Something between 4.36% and 4.5%).
All ranged attacks seem to be reduced by an amount similar to this.

Rogue testing (here) indicates that the reduction for melee white attacks appears to be 4.8% with a very high degree of confidence.

• frmorrison · 12/08/08, 1:02 PM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Paladins seem to get 3% melee hit from some unknown source. Possibly only if they specced into Precision before 3.0.
Judgements count as ranged attacks though, so they need 5% hit for melee but 8% for judgements.
(That is if I understood their threads correctly.)

There are a few logs of Paladins without Precision pre-3.0 showing a 8% miss rate, so Precision is the source.

Judgement appears to have a slightly higher miss rate than melee, but no where close to a 3% difference.

I have a 6% miss rate on target dummies, and I am unsure about Judgements.

Writhe · 12/09/08, 3:54 PM

Originally Posted by Sydane

One fundamental aspect of the calculation is the assumption of the mob's defense level. Have people done testing using player defense levels to see if the calculation remains the same? Is there any way to test a mob's defense level other than with misses? Perhaps the new diminishing returns calculations on avoidance are actually affecting mob's levels of miss from defense.

This could explain how we are seeing a critical hit percentage reduction while attacking bosses as well. I am seeing this as the most likely cause. Surprised nobody else has replied to this post.

Originally Posted by Roywyn

So, what do we know so far with certainty for attacks against boss mobs?

Known Hit
Dodge rate of any attack vs. bosses is just under 6.5%.
Estimated around 6.45%, so you'll want 6.5% reduction from expertise anyway.

Known/Unknown Crit
Your crit rate for white attacks against and is reduced by about 4.5% (Something between 4.36% and 4.5%).
All ranged attacks seem to be reduced by an amount similar to this.

What levels of defense are required for -4.5% crit and +6.5% dodge?

The relative uncertainty and non-whole numbers all point to a scaling avoidance issue in my opinion. Maybe blizz dropped the ball and didn't increase bosses innate avoidance this expac? Perhaps it was intended.

PSGarak · 12/09/08, 3:58 PM

If I understand it right, diminishing returns apply to the ratings conversion into defense skill, not to defense skill itself or the percentage reductions it entails. Bosses aren't level 80 mobs with rating equivalent to 15 defense skill, they're level 83 mobs with base defense skill (or are they?). Diminishing returns shouldn't be creeping into their stats unless they've been hand-adjusted, and even then I think it's more likely the percentages rather than ratings have been tuned manually.

Writhe · 12/09/08, 4:11 PM

Diminishing returns are applied to non-passive avoidance not defense rating to skill conversions.

TankSpot (Satrina) on Avoidance DR's

Exemplar · 12/09/08, 5:01 PM

Diminishing returns, even if present, knocking off exactly 1.00% would be stretching credulity. It would more likely be a fraction. Testing is showing an exact 1.00% reduction in hit cap from previous (9% to 8%).

Writhe · 12/09/08, 5:16 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Diminishing returns, even if present, knocking off exactly 1.00% would be stretching credulity. It would more likely be a fraction. Testing is showing an exact 1.00% reduction in hit cap from previous (9% to 8%).

Maybe DR constants and caps were derived from this 1%. They came from somewhere to start with, although it was most probably pulled out of someones ass we can't discredit the possibility, that is, until somebody shows us npc boss stats and attributes or at least the constants and avoidance caps. I'm not too good with math so I think I shall leave the rest of the discussion up to you guys. I just thought the idea brought in from Sydane was pretty interesting in theory and wanted to explore it a little.

Montegomery · 12/09/08, 6:07 PM

Originally Posted by Writhe

This could explain how we are seeing a critical hit percentage reduction while attacking bosses as well. I am seeing this as the most likely cause. Surprised nobody else has replied to this post.

What levels of defense are required for -4.5% crit and +6.5% dodge?

The relative uncertainty and non-whole numbers all point to a scaling avoidance issue in my opinion. Maybe blizz dropped the ball and didn't increase bosses innate avoidance this expac? Perhaps it was intended.

Attempting to use defense to measure these changes doesn't work under the models I'm aware of. -4.5% crit doesn't correspond to a whole number defense (112.5). 6.5% dodge is also a non-whole defense number (162.5). In any case, 6.5% dodge was the norm at 70 as well, I don't think anything's changed there.

Additionally, the equation for hit chance is listed as follows from Wowwiki:

Defense Skill - Weapon Skill < 10: 5% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill)*.1%
Defense Skill - Weapon Skill > 10: 7% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill - 10)*.4%

You can't reduce hit by exactly 1% via Defense or Weapon Skill against bosses. Either that 7% was changed to a 6%, the equations have changed, or you can't look at defense for the answer to the hit issue.

What might be useful would be to use an up and coming DK still leveling in Outland to take a large number of swings at a level 70 target dummy at various levels. If miss rates at 67 and below fit the equation while still showing the mysterious 1% hit change then we'll have at least narrowed things down slightly. Alternatively, we might find something we've overlooked.