charriu

The talent provides 3% crit on targets affected with ANY faerie fire, so probably no.

 

Boevis

So long as the raid contains a properly specced Spriest, there's no reason for a Moonkin to cast Faerie Fire (in fact, it becomes detrimental if you're also using a Feral Tank). Taking the iFF talent is a DPS boost (but is likely one of the first dropped to gain mana regen), casting it is what causes the DPS loss.

 

Prinsesa

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was a thread in the tanking forums a while back confirming that Feral Faerie Fire can be applied to a mob regardless of the presence of Misery or IFF debuffs, assuming the detriment you're referring to is a Bear tank being unable to access FFF's threat.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

tasha

Some minor updates...

Damage % Buff
-> BM Hunters can keep it up as long as their pet is alive and attacking something.

Damage Reduction % Buff
-> In 3.1, Discipline priests can easily keep it up on the whole raid.

Armor (major) Debuff
Armor (minor) Debuff
-> I think there are Hunters' pets who can do those as well (BM only though). Really case-specific anyway.

Armor % Buff
-> It seems Holy Priests will be reluctant to take this talent now that their tank healing efficiency is limited. Discipline Priests will have it.

Melee Haste Buff
-> DKs need to spend 6 talent points for only 5% haste as personal benefit. A frost dps DK will do it (to go up the tree), but a Frost tank has much better options for those talent points. An enhancement shaman needs 2 points.

Attack Power Buff
-> A Holy paladin can take the 2 improved points for BoM instead of 2 seconds less on judgments' cd.

Shamans' mana spring totem is now raid wide and doesn't stack with BoW. (Improved totem is resto spec).

 

Tharia

Major is from worms which are exotic pets, so BM only. They lose quite a lot of dps from it as it is not a ferocity pet, didn't check the exact numbers.
Minor is from wasps which can be used by every hunter, loss of about 150 dps when used instead of a wolf according to the spreadsheet.

My Armory

 

Boevis

I hadn't noticed this before, but Disc Priests can easily have 100% uptime of the 3% DR on the whole raid: Renewed Hope. That takes some pressure off of having to bring a Prot Pally.

 

• sordee

Might be a stupid question:
But in a 25 man, which warrior is the best option for taking Imp Demo Shout in raid?
Prot Warrior, Arms or Fury?

 

Boevis

That's a tough question, probably an arms warrior because he's less likely to ever spec into improved cleave. Aside from that, they're basically the same at that point of the tree.

 

LittleHamster

It's a dps loss for dps warriors to take up imp demo shout. On the other hand, it's quite easy for a prot warrior to pick up imp demo shout in a survival/progression build. I got these two from a tankspot post.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

These are ofc not threat oriented builds. If you must use a dps warrior for it, fury struggles more with rage at the moment and will benefit from unbridled wrath more. Arms will be the better choice.

 

Shha

Wrong about the warrior choice.

a) Unless you have TWO dps warriors, its better if one of other classes get imp demo. Imp commanding is helpful
b) If you have two, make fury use it. While the argument about unbridled wrath is correct, the dps lost by arms by wasting around 1 gcd per 15 sec (counting the occasional resist and a safety measure of 20 sec reapplying to account for it), is far more then dps lost by fury for the rage cost + lower ubridled (fury has enough free gcds).

 

Poromu

Just a note, with the change to FF making it a 5 minute PvE duration it's really a very miniscule almost immeasureable ammount of dps lost from applying it as Balance. However when you have a feral and a spriest you would be starting your dps rotation so it's really just a call of fight mechanics (one mob or several) that would judge it out, optimal raid setup the feral does it and spriest covers misery.

 

• BoomBeef

As far as a unique Health buff, as Arms spec one can get Commanding Presence and do the more enhanced Commanding shout. It is incorrect to say it is only done by Fury warriors or Fury spec.

And as Shha said, DPS loss is significant for Arms spec warriors to Demo shout simply because of the GCD issues. If you had to pick, have Fury or Prot spec debuff with Demo shout and have Arms buff the Commanding shout.

I would like to know if Ferals loose any DPS% to Demo roar or not. Interesting to note Locks loose 6% DPS on their version.

 

kalbear

That's correct; Feral Faerie fire and IFF are independent. The only 'loss' would be if a feral cat put up FFF instead of a feral bear.

For a feral, it takes 3 GCDs per 30 seconds to reapply this assuming they're in cat. One to change to bear, one to demo roar, one to change back to cat. It's a pretty significant hit to their DPS; I haven't figured it out precisely, but you're going to lose at least 12% melee attacks if you're doing that as well as potentially some energy depending on your furor.

 

Boevis

Since Catform can't demo roar (yet!) it's a very significant loss shifting to bear to keep it up

Our previous statements about Fury being the ones to keep it up was based on pre 3.1 when arms wasn't optimal dps, now with them being so close head to head, Arms likely wins out because of providing Trauma (+150 dps for feral druids if we don't have to mangle)

 

Kysimir

As Arms for my guild, I lose about ~300-700 DPS going from Normal Rotation to Sunder Rotations. The reason for the disparity is some fights are very sunder-unfriendly. XT Deconstructor comes to mind. I sunder the boss, get the bomb and have to run, sunder could fall off. Or heart is exposed, boss becomes immune to taunt, sunders DO fall off. Hence I must restart from 0. DPS races where I *HAVE* to get 5 stacks within 5 or 6s, I tend to lose more DPS as well. Whereas Hodir is closer to 300 DPS loss.

My rotation was posted in a jpg format here:

In-Depth Arms DPS Discussion

Thunderclap is an insignificant DPS loss. I usually use it in lieu of Slam.
I never demo shout... so I'm unsure as to the loss there. :/

I can get you wws reports later, if you'd like. It may take me a while, as to get the same fight with roughly the same buffs, with me sundering and with a prot warrior sundering (we don't always have a prot warrior with us).

 

Naivedo

Debuff - Spell Damage Taken: Best if used by an Unholy Death Knight when fighting more than a single mob because they can apply debuff to more than two targets after two global cool downs with Icy Touch (and/or Plague Strike) and Pestilence unlike Balance Druids. Pestilence can hit every mob within a 10 (15 glyphed) yard radius with a 100% chance to apply debuff. No damage lost.
* Balance Druids have a 100% chance to apply debuff to targets of their two direct damage abilities, Starfire and Wrath. No damage lost.
* Warlock - Curse of Elements - Self damage loss of 6%

Shorter Verison

Debuff - Spell Damage Taken: Unholy Death Knight - Multiple Targets. Talent increasing disease damage taken and improves critical strike chance with weapons and spells by {1/2/3}% at all times.
* Balance Druids - Single target only. Talent also increases spell damage by {1/2/3}%.
* Warlock - Curse of Elements - Self damage loss of 6%

 

Njald

Static Armor buffs should be included on front page in the OP.
While it's currently only two classes that have miniscule DPS gains from it it is still nice to know the values and the opportunity costs for each. Also, the main article includes Armor Debuffs so mitigation is clearly a part of this thread subject.

 

Boevis

Armor is being mentioned: Armor %: Holy Priest or Restoration Shaman

 

Glory

I think he means Devotion Aura (Paladin), Stoneskin Totem (Shaman).

Prot Paladin can strengthen his aura by 50% for 3 Talent Points which are also increasing incoming heal from all sources by 6% to all Units affected by his Devotion Aura. Taken by Prot Paladins its a direct Mitigation Talent. For Multi Tanking Bossfights like Freya or Thorim its a bonus for bringing 1 Prot Paladin.
Shaman can enhance his totem by 20% for 2 Talent Points, also decreasing Grounding Totem cd by 2 Sec. No Selfbonus.

 

François

Static armor buffs (devotion aura and stoneskin totem) aren't overlapping, as far as I know. It would be confusing if they were added to the front page in the OP.

 

Whitemane

Damage reduction %:

Discipline priests have Renewed Hope which gives a raid-wide reduction of damage by 3% for 20 seconds when PW:S is cast.

Melee Crit %:
Feral druids are optimal, fury warriors have lousy dps at the moment.

Damage %
Beastmastery hunters are terrible dps at the moment.

Replenishment:

This comes from survival hunters and the talent it comes from, although it does give extra stats besides replenishment, is considered a dps loss.

Armor (minor):

Balance druids should do this, the talent that improves faerie fire is now a personal dps gain to use and is part of normal balance rotations. Ferals due to being energy based can probably squeeze this in equally well.

Healing:
Marksman hunters apply this as part of their regular rotation, not 100% uptime though.

Melee hit chance:

Marksman hunters should be noted as a special case, they should be considered last to do it. 10-11% dps loss.

Spell hit:

Balance druids no longer suffer a DPS loss from giving this.

 

Boevis

Correction: It is most definitely still a DPS loss for Moonkin to apply Faerie Fire, albeit a very small one on single targets (1 global every 5 minutes), Misery is still the better option for +3% Spell Hit as it's free application on a selfish talent, and Feral Druids are the better source of Fearie Fire.

 

Celdhyrean

The talent has become a core part of the build (for the +3% crit more than anything else) since the spell's duration has been changed to 5 minute (and since some confirmation by GC since the testing of a 3% crit chance is not a simple thing to do). Now we can basically make use of it by ourselves without any significant dps drop so it should in every moonkin's build.
Also, all moonkins should have it up on bosses. The dps cost is insignificant since you can cast it while moving (and it's easy to run out of other instants to cast while moving, for example during the pull). The benefit is a garantee that the debuff stays up on the boss at all times even if the spriest is off running somewhere or focusing something else.

E&M (13% magical damage debuff) : up at all times on a single target dps fight, not up at all on aoe phases (applying it would both be unrealistic since the debuff duration is low and a big dps loss for the moonkin).

 

Iroared

Few notes

1. Damage Reduction %
Disc priests' Renewed Hope is raidwide now, and has pretty much 100% uptime (lasts 20 seconds after casting PW:S).
2. Melee Haste
Frost DK's need to spend 6 talent points to provide 20% haste buff (5 of them are to provide the buff to self), whereas shaman needs 2 points to provide 20% haste.
3. Replenishment
The buff comes from Survival Hunters (not Marksmanship), also many hunters prefer to put less points into this ability or even skip it completely as self bonus is rather weak.

4. Crit Chance
Having 3 points in Master Poisoner would be unoptimal for DPS in most cases

 

Boevis

Regarding melee haste, would a DK Spend those 6 points elsewhere Improved Icy Talons still gives him 5% bonus Haste, and without them, the tree requires 4 talents that don't significantly increase DPS anyway, and I wonder if the 5% haste beats out the gain from a couple of the other points in there.