Not sure what you're doing, I got 737 dps with your DW setup(battle stance/overpower) and 689 dps with your 2H setup(berserker stance/WW)
mmm with no buffs whatsoever other than zerker stance, I got 570 for 2H and 565 for DW (against lvl 63)
What talents did you use? I did 17/34 for 2H and 13/38 for DW
Also what did you check for "Using?" I was a bit confused about that
I checked everything cept MS, HS and Big Execute
Not sure what you're doing, I got 737 dps with your DW setup(battle stance/overpower) and 689 dps with your 2H setup(berserker stance/WW)
mmm with no buffs wutsoever other than zerker stance, i got 570 for 2h and 565 for dw (against lvl 63)
wut talents did u use? i did 17/34 for 2h and 13/38 for dw
also wut did u check for "Using?" i was a bit confused about that
i checked everything cept MS, HS and Big Execute
thanks for the help :)
Wut? U?
My man, freaking Babelfish if you have to; but ESL or not, you're going to try a little harder if you want to post here.
Originally Posted by Lyta
I've been trying to concentrate on studying for my Proof Methods test tomorrow, and all I can think of is your hotness, radiating out from the pixels on my monitor, seared straight into my neurons.
Sweet can't wait to see how average rampage and imp zerg stance is
25/36 prob the max pve dps build unless there are changes to the lower talents in Fury.
You can already kind of model it with the current spreadsheet. Using the the best available DW fury gear at the moment, standard raid buffs (bok, bom, TSA + windfury !!!), basic consumables (mongoose, giants):
Total dps increase going from 17/34 to 25/36 = 11.3% increase (not including HS rank dmg increase, adding +3% hit to an item and adding in other extra talent points to sword spec, anger man, hs, minus 1 from imp exe)
Not really that much is it? But thats with best DW Fury gear at the moment (best swords not using TF), presumably lvl 70 gear will help us improve a lot more and also improved ranks of existing skills like HS and battleshout. When deathwing models rampage, imp zerg stance and imp ww as well as the new skill ranks and ability to put in stats e.g assume base AP will increase with gear from ~1100 to ~1500, be interesting to see if what the best pve dps spec is as the talents stand at the moment.
Ok, this is a quick fix release. I believe I've implemented all the new talents. For blood frenzy, I assume you have Rend or Deep Wounds on the target all the time. You can fill in the talent if you feel that you'll have a competant Arms warrior in your raid, akin to shaman/paladin buffs. As an interesting sidenote, I dabbled around with 1H spec, and it actually doesn't do too bad compared to full DPS specs, only lagging behind by 50 to 70 dps. For 30 points in protection, that's quite a good trade off. I left that current setup as default in the release so people could see what I am talking about. Also, there's none of the long-term features in this release, I did this so people could start playing around with the new talents, but don't worry, I'm still working on it.
I'll upload it to Celandro's site once he gets back to me, I'm having trouble uploading to it, and it's probably my fault.
Armour: best available (as per default in spredsheet) at the moment so probably realistic for lvl 70 before 25 man end game instances (dont want to get into this argument :). Also using edgemasters if glancing blows remain the same its still more dps than anihilation for non human/orc.
Weapons: Gresil and iblis for sword spec and Gresil and kingsfall for rest.
Buffs: using default so: motw, TSA, bok, bom, strenght of earth, WF, giants, juju power, mongoose, blood frenzy up 100%. Seems reasonably realsitic in expansion prob even fairly conservative with new alchamy recipes.
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Summary I can't find a higher pure dps spec than 25/32/4 with the 2 best swords (excluding TF) if you use zerg,ww and op using stance dance because you have TM. But Deathwing hasnt included the new ranks of HS, battleshout, ww which may change this. Using 0 new talents is so sad.
Trading sword spec for imp zerg doesnt seem worthwhile as battle overpower is better than zerg/ww by a good margin and you can't stance dance without TM. I've assumed stance dancing for any spec with TM
Hybrid one hand spec is a 4% dps loss, which is less than the 10% could be used as a benchmark to evaluate the gain in tanking talents for loss in dps. And gaining defiance, toughness, imp shield block, last stand the raid may take you as the 3-4 th warrior over that guy that does 4% more dmg but doest have those things. Of course that guy may take a rogue/mage spot depending on how they do.
Either way the new talents dont give us much more dps but over 1000 dps with only the current best gear is pretty nice all the same. And we have a lot more options in terms of build
Deathwing next mission if you choose to accept it: add in the new ranks for our spells available on curse gaming site
Uhm.. are you bearing in mind that heroic strike will quite possibly be a dps reduction in TBC? As it stands, flurry will not be proccing off yellow damage, meaning it will actually be a tough call as to whether to use heroic strike to dps or not. Only getting flurry on offhand damage = sadfase. Would make a huge difference to +hit (capping it or getting as close to the cap as possible would be virtually essential).
The flurry thing has been said many times is a tootip update issue from over 2 months ago. Flurry will still be procing off instants and yellow dmg. I dont think there is any intention to nerf flurry in the expansion.
The curse gaming spells are from data mining but at least the HS dmg increase was confirmed by bliz. So good reason to belive other ones are right as well, except ww, if it is thats a very cool change that makes imp ww bloody good.
I can work on the higher ranks, but there is difficulty in that I assume the highest rank available currently, and people still use this for the game today. As for HS, I'm interested to see how the dazed mechanic works out.
As for stance dancing, even with TM, you're going to lose some rage on switching stance once in a while. Nobody's perfect, so hence lost rage = lost dps. It's really hard to model that, but depending on which stance you switch for, you could up the cost of that ability you switch in for. Given that battle stance/overpower > berserker stance/WW, I would say up the cost of WW to model the inefficiency of switching stances. You also run into problems that you are technically DPSing while you switch stances to hit WW or OP, thus your crit rate has changes for those ~2s. It's a big enough difference to mention, but I'm not even going to beging thinking about how to model that. Those two reasons are generally why I've stayed away from stance dancing on my spreadsheet. And in game...I get way too much rage to switch stances most of the time.
As for the boringness of new warrior talents...yeah, they are. But I'm fucking stoked that I can spec 30 into protection and still keep practically of my dps, which itself is still stelar. 1H spec + flurry is the ace in the hole for me. I hate being the tanking liability for my guild(fury/arms now). If 31+ talents for fury and arms don't improve much, I'm definitely going hybrid route in the expansion. Unless they do something to fix deep wounds. Rolling wounds anyone?
Armour: best available (as per default in spredsheet) at the moment so probably realistic for lvl 70 before 25 man end game instances (dont want to get into this argument :). Also using edgemasters if glancing blows remain the same its still more dps than anihilation for non human/orc.
Weapons: Gresil and iblis for sword spec and Gresil and kingsfall for rest.
Buffs: using default so: motw, TSA, bok, bom, strenght of earth, WF, giants, juju power, mongoose, blood frenzy up 100%. Seems reasonably realsitic in expansion prob even fairly conservative with new alchamy recipes.
@Margot: Deathwing's Spreadsheet doesn't handle slam properly. Higher damage weapons actually lower slam's damage on the sheet.
And if they fix imp slam to not trigger the global cooldown, that's the spec I'd want to be.
You've said that before Grayson, when was the last time you looked at my slam calcs? Not trying to be hostile here, really curious because I think I changed them recently, within the last few releases.
It may be going down because I measure slam's dps in comparitive cost. As gear progress, white damage begins taking a larger and larger portion of your overall damage. So, by that reasoning, slam's dps could eventually go negative because it's replacing white dps.
Either way, I just opened up the spreadsheet, put in a Crystal Spiked Maul, then changed it to a Might of Menethil, Slam dps went from 358 to 402, remember, this in addition to white dps on my sheet, so the number represented on the ability's field already includes the white dps cost if applicable. But, please, take a look. If you think something's wrong, I welcome the criticism, I would like this spreadsheet to work for as many people as possible. The only thing I will say for sure that isn't working is that slam's RagePS cost isn't figured into any of the other rage autocalcs(heroic strike namely). That should be a big deal though, slam warriors don't use HS, right?
Slam totally resets the swing timer unless you use an instant right after it, in which case it does something funky, but you swing a lot sooner than if you didn't do an instant. Same is true for war stomp.
I haven't downloaded the last 2 versions I think, Deathwing, but slam scales at the same rate that white damage does, so even if it's replacing white damage, it's still replacing it with more damage. There's no way it could go negative if it's modelled properly, but I'm gonna dl it.
Other interesting thing to see in your comparison Khalim, 2h fury (might of menethil I suppose since we're using KT drops) using improved slams when nothing else available: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=LMGhbAbZVV0VMEoVzbh
Ok you have imp ww in that build so I'm going to assume you want the zerg/ww option with no stance dance as you have no TM. also you have rend for some reason which is useless. Even if stacks with deap wounds for blood frenzy (which I doubt cause 10% extra dmg is too uber) but no reason for you to go imp rend. The arms warrior with blood frenzy can keep it up.
DPS for that build using Slam and MOM is 1197 which is a 4% dps drop. So 2H fury compares nicely with DW with that weapon and build. The gear is also probably optimal for 2H fury at 8% hit.
Minor point, but do you really need 4 points in TM? 2 should be sufficient, no?
I can work on the higher ranks, but there is difficulty in that I assume the highest rank available currently, and people still use this for the game today. As for HS, I'm interested to see how the dazed mechanic works out.
It would be interesting to see with higher ranks but because we are not sure about ww probably no point till thats finalsied. weapon +300 dmg seems overpowered. You could also use this verison as a BC one and the older version for current play. Yeah the daze increase in dmg will be interesting, maybe worth taking peicing howl for just that.
As for stance dancing, even with TM, you're going to lose some rage on switching stance once in a while. Nobody's perfect, so hence lost rage = lost dps. It's really hard to model that, but depending on which stance you switch for, you could up the cost of that ability you switch in for. Given that battle stance/overpower > berserker stance/WW, I would say up the cost of WW to model the inefficiency of switching stances. You also run into problems that you are technically DPSing while you switch stances to hit WW or OP, thus your crit rate has changes for those ~2s. It's a big enough difference to mention, but I'm not even going to beging thinking about how to model that. Those two reasons are generally why I've stayed away from stance dancing on my spreadsheet. And in game...I get way too much rage to switch stances most of the time.
Yeah even with max TM you probably do lose some rage but maxing cooldowns and using hs just before switching to battle and just b4 you switch back reduces that rage loss significantly. Generally I will only lose 10-15 rage each switch which is more than made up for by the overpower.
The change in crit chance prob not much because you're only in battle for ~1-2 secs doubt its significant as even flurried weapon speed is like ~2 secs. At worst you lose 2 swings at lower crit rate.
As for the boringness of new warrior talents...yeah, they are. But I'm fucking stoked that I can spec 30 into protection and still keep practically of my dps, which itself is still stelar. 1H spec + flurry is the ace in the hole for me. I hate being the tanking liability for my guild(fury/arms now). If 31+ talents for fury and arms don't improve much, I'm definitely going hybrid route in the expansion. Unless they do something to fix deep wounds. Rolling wounds anyone?
Yeah bliz seems definatly to be announcing the death of the pure dps warrior spec with these talents. I mean why even bother to add 41 point talents with this lackluster effort. I will prob go 31/30 as well. Rolling deap wounds would be cool.
The arms warrior with blood frenzy can keep it up.
I'm beginning to think this is a mythical creature. A gimpy dps spec that doesn't tank well either? PVP frontloaded damage.. sure.. but where's the beef.
Hm.. +300 dmg MS due to upgrade ranks possibly.
Add a fat 2H weapon (e.g. MOM) and the right armor
MS spec warrior who likes to mainly pvp and is invited to raids because of blood frenzy? Kinda like a hemo speced rogue atm.
That build has some nice pve dmg as well because of endless rage executing, increased use of reck, 10% dmg improvement from 2h weapon spec and blood frenzy not to mention a weapon spec.
Deathwing, Slam is... odd now. It definately goes up, but I can't find a way for it to use excess rage, as the rage per fight is 5579 atm, used is 2808. Total DPS is 1397, sans execute is 1454, execute spam is 1146. But if I turn off execute, then total damage goes down, so maybe I don't understand what the DPS sans execute really means.
Anway, using Might of Menethil with a more optimal 2H itemization (Drake Talon Spaulders, Ghoul Skin Tunic, Drake Fang Talisman), the difference between turning slam on and off is the previously mentioned 1397 and 855. The DPS gained from slam looks correct to me (slam damage - white DPS), but the rage usage looks off.
Ideally, you're using slam when BT and WW cooldowns aren't up if you have rage, this would require a different modelling strategy though, but one you'd apply the same princple to HS with. After all insant attacks are calculated, figure out the remaining rage per second, then you choose either slam or HS, and calculate the average cooldown of each at the point that rage used by HS/slam is equal to excess rage gained.
Turning on slam and WW with a 2H in zerker stance is far more DPS than turning on HS and overpower in battle using the spreadsheet as is. And turning on slam as-is is far more DPS than turning on hamstring. And finally, Imp Zerker Stance under the aforementoined conditions is more damage than SS spec, axe spec, 2H spec or impale, point for point.
Redone using new ranks of current dps spells and lvl 70 starting stats (used dwarf this time)
HS dmg 247
Hamstr dmg 63
BS 305
Exe 1070
Edit: calc were wrong, waiting for Deathwings updated spreadsheet
highest dps build still seems to be 25/36/0.
In terms of % dps contribution this is how I think the talents sit (obviously you can't get to all in this order so the of the optimal allocation of what you can reach results in 25/36).
For a 41 point talent Rampage is obviously really weak as has been pointed out by many people. Precision isnt great either, imp zerg stance is quite good but hard to get to. If Rampage was up the top there as it should be it would make precision and imp zerg stance well worthwhile.
Sounds perfect, I look forward to the new version :)
I didn't read a lot of the middle section of this thread, so excuse me if it's been brought up before, but do you plan on adding deep wounds DPS?
Yeah, I guess I could. I haven't put it as high priority since it's basically useless for DW builds. Off the top of my head, it would work in the same way as crusader and overpower for calculations. Anyone know how often the damage ticks, every 3s?
I don't think you can have 2 31 point talents, since that adds up to 62 talents.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
08/28/06, 11:56 PM
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