Ok, but the results don't make sense. For a 190s fight, you can use Earthstrike twice, at 0s and 120s. So how does adding 10 more seconds and no more possible uses(since the next use comes at 240s) increase the average AP value?
I'm guessing he is timing his earthstrikes with deathwish or he forgot earthstrike was a 2 minute cooldown.
That said, I think the right way to do it is to assume that all trinkets/cooldowns are used while building up rage for your 100 rage execute so you have all cooldowns enabled perfectly at the 20% mark. Adding a checkbox for 'use recklessness' would help. Then work backwards and figure out when cooldowns would be used before that. Its going to be very tricky to figure out the formula for overlapping cooldowns with different timers though (how best to use deathwish + diamond flask + recklessness at the same time?).
It may be easiest to break down the fight into 1s increments on another sheet, figure out when each cooldown would be enabled and then calculate the dps for each second. You could then do a really cool graph of dps over time which would be cool looking.
PS. I realize this will make the calculations much more tricky as you need to calculate white DPS + RPS + abilities used for each possible combination of cooldowns. Assuming they use recklessness for execute range, this means that you need reck + dw + trinket1 + trinket2, dw + trinket1 + trinket2, dw + trinket1, dw + trinket2, trinket1 + trinket2, dw, trinket1, trinket2 = 8 possible combinations of cooldowns so long as trinket1 and trinket2 cooldowns are >= 15s (which I think they all are).
Oops. Yah, if you check the CooldownLength I used, I had it at 180s, not 120s :(
And using trinkets that boost your white damage while executing is inefficient. A 100 rage execute is a waste of at least 50 rage. 2 Bloodthirsts and 40 rage execute gets you more damage for the rage than a single, 100 rage execute, let alone using MS or WW with less than fully-buffed AP.
Oops. Yah, if you check the CooldownLength I used, I had it at 180s, not 120s :(
And using trinkets that boost your white damage while executing is inefficient. A 100 rage execute is a waste of at least 50 rage. 2 Bloodthirsts and 40 rage execute gets you more damage for the rage than a single, 100 rage execute, let alone using MS or WW with less than fully-buffed AP.
We assume you can not bloodthirst any more than you already are. You are also whirlwinding as much as you possibly can. The dps on the extra rage on a deathwish execute is far higher than the hamstring or heroic strike alternatives.
This means you can do 1 100 rage execute (ok maybe closer to 70 rage since you dont want to waste rage)
The cooldown use is to increase your rage gen. The goal after that is to generate a minimum of 10 rage every 1.5s even though you are missing/glancing/etc. This is much harder than it sounds. Very few warriors have fast enough weapons (1.95 or faster if you dont have haste enchants) or consistantly high enough rage gen to truly never miss the 1.5s cooldown. Any extra rage you generate is still going to be converted at a good dpr value, but as long as you are generating 10 rage every 1.5s, it doesnt matter when the extra rage comes.
Sure the spreadsheet doesnt take into account the standard deviation of your rage gen but that doesnt mean it cant make intellegent decisions regarding when to use your cooldowns.
It's not so much the using the 1.5s every chance you get, as how much rage are you going to have when you are able to execute? If you need the timers to be able to put you in the 10-30 rage sweet range per execute, then it is more beneficial to use them when you're executing. From experience, I've found that I either can't use execute yet, or I'm spending 35 to 70 rage per execute because Death Wish and Reck are up. During that time, adding 280 AP for instance would be a waste, as I'm already going above optimal execute range. Even without Death Wish and Reck, it's usually in the range of 25-50 rage per execute. Popping an on use trinket during that time would still be a waste.
Unless a use trinket is going to allow sooner rage regen (Kiss of the Spider) or not put you above optimal execute rage range, it is better to use it as often as possible (beginning of the fight and as soon as it is available again) than to save it for executing. That's the only point I'm trying to get across.
From Grayson's point of view, what he's saying makes sense, since he's a 2H warrior. Even glancing blows with no +skill are going to generate enough rage to execute every melee swing. 1H warriors however might benefit from stacking Earthstrike or Slayer's Crest during the execute range to ensure they have the necessary rage almost every time(miss/dodge withstanding. You might even be able to bump up the offhand to high enough damage that it generates 10 rage per hit...but I don't think that's quite possible yet.
Celandro, my statistics skills are a bit rusty, can you explain how standard deviation applies to rage generation? Is this supposed to account for "streakyness" per se? I'm starting to get the feeling that my spreadsheet has matured so far that I really have to dig deep to improve it.
Yes, it refers to streakiness. Its used for normal distributions so its not actually a perfect match for WoW but its close. That means, how much will your rage vary from the average. if you take your mean and subtract the standard deviation, you will have that much rage or more 75% of the time. You will have mean - 2*stddev 87.5% of the time. If you take your mean and add the standard deviation, you will have that much rage or more 25% of the time.
In the WoW case, we typically care about the minimum rage generation per 1.5s during execute phase. With a slow 2her, you will have a very high std deviation, as you arent swinging fast enough. You will typically have 0, 0.7X rage, X rage or 2X rage every 1.5s. Of course this is possible to calculate by hand. For dual fast weapons with flurry up, the calculations get much more complicated and that is the case where std dev can be used.
Celandro's argument that faster weapons give more reliable rage gen to allow optimal 1.5sec excuting makes intuative as well as in game sense to me. But don't ask me about the maths.
With my adjustment to the triket equation I was just trying to show that in longer fights that allow you to use trinkets with cooldowns multiple times, things like earthstrike and slayers grow in value. I think Graysons is an improvment that would make it work for any fight duration and adjust for partial c/d which I didnt think of. Unfortuantaly I can't adjust the equation to work with KOS because of the way its worked into the haste equation
On a fight like emps or chromagus i get better dps using earthstrike and hoj than hoj and dft, but I think this might be because of the time spent out of combat (well swinging) which gives a benefit for those trinkets with c/d's and no benfit for passives.
Oh and I dont tend to use earthstrike or deathwish at point 0 because there is a high chance of pulling agro.
I'm not sure whether saving earthstrike for execute phase with deathwish and recklessness is better than using it every c/d even for DW, i typically do but I would really like to know the answer to this if you can calculate it.
I don't see how that isn't already implemented. There's a cooldown field that the user can alter on the right most column. Put whatever number you think it appropriate in for the altered cooldown field. 7 times in a 12:30 fight? Put in 107 instead of 120. But, with the exception stacking trinkets during certain phases, I still don't see how LONGER fights favor trinkets with cooldown. Short fights where you can abuse the cooldown out of combat is there they are favored. Longer fights are just going to average out the benefits over the cooldown, except on ones you mentioned where you spend a considerable amount of time out of combat.
I honestly didnt think of adjusting the cooldown like that, guess the equation makes it more automated by allowing you to leave the cooldown as the default for the trinket and just adjusting the fight duration
What is the DPS conversion for +1 skill point in a given weapon? For instance is +5skill better than 1% chance to hit or 20ap. Thanks in advance
The whole point of my spreadsheet is to avoid equivilancies like that. AP, crit, hit, and skill all change in value as each stat changes, so you have to reevaluate them as your gear changes. Even playstyle, level difference, and spec affect what you're asking. So, in short, there's no easy answer to your question.
Sure there is an easy answer. Assuming you are getting 15 dmg/rage with the extra rage, its ~1% increase in dps for +1skill up to a cap of +10skill vs level 63 mobs.
Deathwing were you ever able to determine if your projections for HOJ were accurate? I went through all the posts but did not find anything saying you were. Find it a bit difficult to believe that HOJ is slightly better than Kiss of the spider, even if not using at the most optimal times.
Did a little bit of math with my current weapons for bosses, (not taking flurry into account since it affects both HOJ and Kiss of the spider) found out the proc from kiss of the spider will only give me one extra swing for the duration of the 15 seconds it lasts. Seems a bit disapointing given that HOJ can probably proc 3 to 4 times in 2 minutes. Please correct me if I did something wrong.
Yeah hoj does seem very powerfull in the spreadsheet making you think hangon is that modeled right?
But then think of it this way Hoj is 2% extra swing + 20 ap passive. Sword spec is 5% extra swing and we all know how godly sword spec is, so why is it such a big suprise that Hoj is so good?
Like some said in a TBC thread come summer 2009 and we're all lvl 100 ppl will still be using hoj and even fetish just because of the way they scale (pending future changes of course)
How is the Heroic Strike frequency calculated in the spreadsheet?
For fights like Thaddius and Loatheb where you have infinite rage, how does the Spreadsheet handle this?
I ask because Iblis in the MH is probably the most powerful weapon in the game (barring The Hungering Cold) for the Patchwerk, Thaddius and Loatheb encounters simply due to the HS spam. (I say iblis because of two things: 1 Speed and 2: Sword: aka better AP normalization for WW) However a Death's Sting + Harbinger of Doom may well be better yet as the only instant attack you will be using most likely on these encounters is WW which due to its long cooldown makes up a ratehr small% of your total damage.
Also, Edgemasters become very inefficient to use once you are in an infinite rage scenario with no practical threat ceiling. Your White:Yellow ratio would creep upwards to well over 30:70 totally negating the attractiveness of Edgemasters over say Gauntlets of Anhilation.
Hmmm, that's a bit surprising, two tank weapons in one instance? Is Gressil no more? I'll add that into the next release.
About HoJ, I've modeled it best I could. Basically, it's every swing that connects times .02, it's really not that hard of a model. I have read about HoJ resetting the MH swing timer, is that true?
Heroic Strike simply uses the leftover RagePS. So, if you want to prioritize HS over your other abilities, either raise their cooldowns or uncheck them. I would have to argue against it on Thaddius, I hear it's still quite possible to pull agro on that encounter.
I've never really like Edgemasters, +skill itemization is boring and it has no stamina. When you get to Naxx level gear, you're right in that the difference Edgemasters makes over Gauntlets of Annihilation probably isn't worth it because the extra rage you'll be generating will only go into heroic strike. You do have to consider consistant rage generation though, which Celandro was talking about above. But even then, I couldn't stand using level 44 mail gauntlets on Patchwerk. I'm fucking sick of this Lionheart helm already, there better be an upgrade for it soon in the expansion.
But then think of it this way Hoj is 2% extra swing + 20 ap passive. Sword spec is 5% extra swing and we all know how godly sword spec is, so why is it such a big suprise that Hoj is so good?
Am i mistaken in thinking that the "free swing" mechanic of WoW (eg sword spec, HoJ, Thrash Blade) just "fast forwards" the timer of autoswing to next swing? (so to speak)
If it is so, i'd venture to say that 1% free swing is in fact singificantly less than a "real" free swing.
Consider this:
* Free swing procs on a MH autoattack -> you get the next scheduled autoswing in an instant , i.e. a real free swing
* free swing procs on an instant OR an OH swing -> depending on the timer your MH autoswin at that time sits at, it will result in a 100% free swing or an 0% free swing (read: when your MH was just about to hit anyway). At average it should result in a 50% free swing.
Sure ... free swing procs can happen on hamstring spam and such, resulting in a really nice DPS increase. I'm not denying that.
I just have the feel that the free swing mechanic does not live up to its name of a *real* free swing.
Unless i am mistaken in my presumption.
I would have to argue against it on Thaddius, I hear it's still quite possible to pull agro on that encounter.
Very possible. I used Deathwish on Thaddius the other night, got a lucky string of crits, and hit 1700ish dps (according to Combatstats). Thaddius promptly turned to me and kicked my ass, then went back to the MT. Haven't done many attempts on Loatheb, but with the spore buff there shouldn't be any way to pull aggro unless you go all out before getting the buff.
I would have to argue against it on Thaddius, I hear it's still quite possible to pull agro on that encounter.
Very possible. I used Deathwish on Thaddius the other night, got a lucky string of crits, and hit 1700ish dps (according to Combatstats). Thaddius promptly turned to me and kicked my ass, then went back to the MT. Haven't done many attempts on Loatheb, but with the spore buff there shouldn't be any way to pull aggro unless you go all out before getting the buff.
And thats why you get a Fetish and make a deathwish macro that also pops your trinket(s).
Fetish is the best fury warrior dps trinket in many fights, and being able to pop deathwish at the start of the fight to both lower your damage and your agro is great.
As for GoA vs edgemaster, the retarded +skill mechanic makes edgemasters better unless you have a lot of incoming rage. Not only is it slightly more raw dps, its more consistant as instead of each attack being either 0, 0.7x, 1x or 2x rage, you have 0, 0.91y, 1y rage, 2yrage. Even though x>y by a small amount in the GoA case, the 0.91 factor on glancing blows makes a huge difference in your rage consistancy since 40% of your swings are guaranteed to glance.
Of course im using a silithid claw these days so i would be pleasd to get a GoA but I dont see my guild killing cthun any time soon.
ok i'm a bit confused over something. Most people state that for dw you should have at least 14% +hit, but the calculator is showing that anything over 6-7% has very small effects. Which is correct?
Also I read somewhere a while back that when wielding 2 weapons of the same speed, there is a chance to make an extra swing or something like that. Is this true? If so, how does it work?
Thank you guys in advance for any replies to my noobish post.
09/06/06, 12:51 PM
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