DPS Warrior Spreadsheet - Page 24

Asraji · 09/26/06, 6:05 AM

I just downloaded it again and it still full of errors as i open it the first time.. kinda strange

Lowk · 09/26/06, 6:07 AM

-edit I get the same problem as the above poster when i open the spreadsheet is there a way to reset all the data you enter in, I am not familar at all with how a spreadsheet works.

Emeraude · 09/26/06, 6:24 AM

I need a little help because this thread is just so crowded.

I was having a friendly discussion with a friend about MS vs BT scaling, I ran across this forumla:

Bloodthirst and Mortal Strike damage will be equal when:

W = weapon DPS
P = Attack Power
15.4W + 746-2/3 = P
This applies to Two-handed weapon users of Mortal Strike only.

To give some realistic examples of this...
With an Arcanite Reaper...
(15.4)(53.8) + 746-2/3 = approximately 1575 Attack Power
With an Obsidian Edged Blade...
(15.4)(64.7) + 746-2/3 = approximately 1743 Attack Power
With an Ashkandi, Greatsword of the Brotherhood...
(15.4)(81.9) + 746-2/3 = approximately 2008 Attack Power

The MS damage forumla reads as follows.

Bonus from attack power + Random number within the damage range of your weapon + Mortal Strike damage bonus
Bonus from attack power is calculated as followed: ATK_Power / 14 * weapon type multiplier

Now Severence & Ashkandi have roughly the same DPS, but the weapon damage is different, Severence's average MS would look more like 868-987(925 average?)with 2008 AP, while BT would be 904. Keep in mind Severence has .1 less DPS(81.8) =o

Am I looking at this wrong? Any help would be appreciated.

Zoltan · 09/26/06, 8:07 AM

Been a while since I last played with weapon dmg formulas, but if memory serves the equation would look like:
((x+z)/14)*3.3+y+160=0.45*(x+z)
where x = AP and y = average weapon damage (DPS*speed), z = weapon AP bonus.
Plugging this into Maxima (laziness ftw) gives us: x = -(3z-14y-2240)/3.
For Severance avg MS would be 954 and you'd need about 2035 AP to hit so hard with BT (on average).
[Edit] Of course, if you have BT, you also have Deathwish, so it's possible to match MS numbers with less AP.

Solid · 09/26/06, 8:13 AM

As far as pure 2H DPS goes, does 2H Fury always beat out MS at endgame?

I am talking 2000+ raid buffed AP 30% Crit ranges

And if so, is it significant?

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LhhxdAio0zVV0V0x

versus

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LbhxbIbZVVzVMxkVo

Using DEoI

Avam · 09/26/06, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Khalim

Can't notice any mistakes on the spreadsheet but your DW talent spec is DW pvp not max pve. Try with standard 17/34 build for max pve single target dps
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=pbhxbhbZVV0VgxoVo

you're missng 1 in DW and imp execute. With that build I get 758 dps on your DW set, 4 dps higher than your 2H build.

Other factors in it being so close as far is I can see:
- You have the bare minimum hit for DW, 10% is low, get up towards 15% and you will notice definate difference in DW. Even lossing 3 crit to gain 5 hit will get you 8 more dps

- Not useing egemaster gloves - use with say crul or a sword with pergio for more dps than castigator. Only mace worth using is prob MSA and again only if DW MSA or using with Anub warhammer (unless human of course) - if u didnt know glancing blows suck and yeah its a stupid mechanism :)

- more DW items: use ony neck if you have it, get a better cloak (you should have access to a lot better), wristguards of veng or quraji bracer is also nice, DFT > seal for DW

- check the difference with no consumables just raid buffs, DW draws further ahead

- the slam on Deathwings spreadsheet is highly optimised (i.e directly after a white swing), this is actualy pretty difficult to time in a messy boss fight (i.e most of naxx) therefore giving a further advantage to DW where you only have to watch BT, WW c/d's and use excess on ham/hs.

- You have one of the best 2H in the game duh :)

Sadly I've been MS for life so my items for DW arent optimal :( (so 10% is best I can get atm)
Since I just started to use DW my only weapons Avail are Castigator/Pugio/Brut Blade/Maladath ... I think Castigator/Pugio is better until I get a Naxx Axe/Sword then I can use Edgemasters again.
I still pvp so cant move those talents ;)

But yea it seems that Slam is over valued since with 200ms ping and min 1 sec human reaction there s no way you can use slam as effective.

Deathwing · 09/26/06, 2:25 PM

It's easy to simulate human response time and ping in my spreadsheet, as long as you still try to use 1 slam right after a melee hit. If you think your ping + human response time = .4s, just lower Improved Slam from 10 points down to 6.

Question for anyone who wants to help me out with theoretical stuff. I'm having really hard time with both WF/SS/HoJ eating flurry charges and standard deviation. In both cases, it's basically having to take exception for certain cases. What if the WF swing happened between swing 3 and swing 2, what if there was a yellow crit after it so that it didn't make a difference? Or, what if the main hand glances for just under 10 rage, how do I know if the off hand hit for enough to execute, and for how much? I'm having trouble working a lot of specific cases into a spreadsheet that is built on averages.

Rawrior · 09/26/06, 2:35 PM

I hate to slightly pull this off topic but what programs can open .xls files? PM would be nice so there is no more wasted space.

Moong · 09/26/06, 4:44 PM

Out of curiosity, how do flurry attack speed increases and attack speed librams/enchants interact? Does having flurry up lower the returns of attack speed increases due to multiplicative interactions, or are they additive?

TL-Seria · 09/26/06, 5:00 PM

Originally Posted by Rawrior

I hate to slightly pull this off topic but what programs can open .xls files? PM would be nice so there is no more wasted space.

Excel or OpenOffice.
Probably whatever a mac uses as well?

• frmorrison · 09/26/06, 5:09 PM

Flurry changes your autoattack to speed of weapon/1.3. Speed librams do the same thing, so current speed of weapon/1.01. So flurry + speed enchant should be multiplicative.

Mac users use Excel too, and I have found that the Mac Office version runs better.

Emeraude · 09/26/06, 5:30 PM

Originally Posted by Zoltan

Been a while since I last played with weapon dmg formulas, but if memory serves the equation would look like:
((x+z)/14)*3.3+y+160=0.45*(x+z)
where x = AP and y = average weapon damage (DPS*speed), z = weapon AP bonus.
Plugging this into Maxima (laziness ftw) gives us: x = -(3z-14y-2240)/3.
For Severance avg MS would be 954 and you'd need about 2035 AP to hit so hard with BT (on average).
[Edit] Of course, if you have BT, you also have Deathwish, so it's possible to match MS numbers with less AP.

Errr with 2035AP BT hits for 916. How is that equal to 954 if it's lower, and 954 is the MS average?

Zoltan · 09/26/06, 6:33 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Originally Posted by Zoltan

Been a while since I last played with weapon dmg formulas, but if memory serves the equation would look like:
((x+z)/14)*3.3+y+160=0.45*(x+z)
where x = AP and y = average weapon damage (DPS*speed), z = weapon AP bonus.
Plugging this into Maxima (laziness ftw) gives us: x = -(3z-14y-2240)/3.
For Severance avg MS would be 954 and you'd need about 2035 AP to hit so hard with BT (on average).
[Edit] Of course, if you have BT, you also have Deathwish, so it's possible to match MS numbers with less AP.

Errr with 2035AP BT hits for 916. How is that equal to 954 if it's lower, and 954 is the MS average?

2035 not including weapon AP bonus, Severance adds 86 AP.

Emeraude · 09/26/06, 7:02 PM

Originally Posted by Zoltan

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Originally Posted by Zoltan

Been a while since I last played with weapon dmg formulas, but if memory serves the equation would look like:
((x+z)/14)*3.3+y+160=0.45*(x+z)
where x = AP and y = average weapon damage (DPS*speed), z = weapon AP bonus.
Plugging this into Maxima (laziness ftw) gives us: x = -(3z-14y-2240)/3.
For Severance avg MS would be 954 and you'd need about 2035 AP to hit so hard with BT (on average).
[Edit] Of course, if you have BT, you also have Deathwish, so it's possible to match MS numbers with less AP.

Errr with 2035AP BT hits for 916. How is that equal to 954 if it's lower, and 954 is the MS average?

2035 not including weapon AP bonus, Severance adds 86 AP.

So what this formula is saying is that if you have 2035AP and then put Severence on you'll have 2120AP and that's the point where MS/BT will meet?

Same with Ashkandi, I get 1998AP out of this forumla and have to add 86AP to get to 2084 for BT/MS to be equal.

Why does the formula make the weapon AP as a something seperate from normal AP?

If I had Severence on and 2035AP, MS would still hit harder, so why was 2035AP the number named as the point where they hit equally when the MS average is supposed to be 954 I guess is what I'm trying to ask.

Eylirria · 09/26/06, 8:07 PM

Sorry for failing to read through the whole thread, 20+ pages to go through are no easy task.

So, in the interest of keeping my question simple, and may I remind you I consider myself ignorant when it comes to warrior DPS, how accurate is this spreadsheet when it comes to pure PvE DPSing (FuryDW) ?

Khalim · 09/26/06, 9:01 PM

The total DPS number is in range +-10-15% in my experiance but obviously not exact. As Deathwing as said before its more about gear comparison than getting an exact total dps for output - he couldve called it dps points as its an arbitary number for the most part.

This is for obvious reasons, some being:
- human error in executing dps patterns
- ping / lag / latency
- boss armour not exactly 20% for the whole fight
- very few strict tank and spank fights with no aoe or outside factors in wow prob only patchwork
- spreadsheet performs averaging over the fight so doesnt fully model trinket stacking, recklessness executing, windfury/hoj eating flurry charges, other special scenarios etc
- you may have to back off at points due to threat e.g can't use deathwish at start without fetish
- potential still undiscovered theoretical/formula errors - always possible when reverse engineering a system

and the list goes on but you get the idea. I still think its one of the best tools available to compare gear and talent spec but dont expect to always do the Total dps that it says you could do

Istarius · 09/27/06, 12:07 PM

Hey there, first time poster here.

I'm curious as to how to make sure I'm looking at a DW or 2H dps number in my setup. I enter all the appropriate gear, but I notice that there seems to be some contribution from whatever weapon you select as your 2H. Could I just confirm that you can make sure you're checking your DW dps by simply selecting an arbitrary 2H, such as "Polearm"?

The reason I ask is whilst looking at this I notice that using 2 rapidity librams in place of 2 Voracity (+8 Str) enchants is an increase in dps, and I thought this was only the case for 2H.

Probably a fool's question, but if anyone could throw me an answer it'd be much appreciated.

• frmorrison · 09/27/06, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Istarius

Could I just confirm that you can make sure you're checking your DW dps by simply selecting an arbitrary 2H, such as "Polearm"?

The reason I ask is whilst looking at this I notice that using 2 rapidity librams in place of 2 Voracity (+8 Str) enchants is an increase in dps, and I thought this was only the case for 2H.

Probably a fool's question, but if anyone could throw me an answer it'd be much appreciated.

The only fool is one that doesn't ask questions ;).

You are correct, selecting 2H like axe, sword or polearm makes the spreadsheet use the DW setup.

Rapidity can beat 16 str at pretty high levels of AP/crit (it has been discussed on this huge thread before).

Istarius · 09/27/06, 1:05 PM

I'll dig through the thread some, thanks for the answer!

livenletdie · 09/27/06, 3:28 PM

Dear Deathwing & comapny....

While farming today on some pretty static mobs (twilights) I noticed a sustained dps of about 310ish. According to your spreadsheet I'm "capable" of 530 ish. Is this in a raid enviroment with the mob turning its back to me? Or do I just suck and need to learntoplay?

My first instinct was to think that it was a comflivt with what abilties I'm using and wether I had the rage to use them, does your spreadsheet acocunt for the mob facing you or having its back toward you? Or will a changing of my special's rotation really yield 200dps more?

Zexika · 09/27/06, 3:43 PM

Originally Posted by livenletdie

Dear Deathwing & comapny....

While farming today on some pretty static mobs (twilights) I noticed a sustained dps of about 310ish. According to your spreadsheet I'm "capable" of 530 ish. Is this in a raid enviroment with the mob turning its back to me? Or do I just suck and need to learntoplay?

My first instinct was to think that it was a comflivt with what abilties I'm using and wether I had the rage to use them, does your spreadsheet acocunt for the mob facing you or having its back toward you? Or will a changing of my special's rotation really yield 200dps more?

There are so many other factors like armor of your enemy, how much damage you receive (rage generation) and so on.

But in long Raid boss fights, this spreadsheet comes very close to reality imo.

Deathwing · 09/27/06, 3:45 PM

Originally Posted by livenletdie

Dear Deathwing & comapny....

While farming today on some pretty static mobs (twilights) I noticed a sustained dps of about 310ish. According to your spreadsheet I'm "capable" of 530 ish. Is this in a raid enviroment with the mob turning its back to me? Or do I just suck and need to learntoplay?

My first instinct was to think that it was a comflivt with what abilties I'm using and wether I had the rage to use them, does your spreadsheet acocunt for the mob facing you or having its back toward you? Or will a changing of my special's rotation really yield 200dps more?

Please read Khalim's post on the previous page. This has been covered many times in the thread.

DPS represented on the spreadsheet isn't supposed to be accurate compared to dps in game for many reason, Khalim has them all covered.

Secondly, this is designed for a sustained DPS on the back of a mob in a raid situation.

Karr · 09/27/06, 4:00 PM

Originally Posted by Khalim

The total DPS number is in range +-10-15% in my experiance but obviously not exact.

I haven't been wanting to ask since everyone wants to compare the worksheet to their actual output but I'm seeing a difference of about 30-40%.

I figured I'd be a bit closer to perfect scenario of the worksheet than I'm currently outputting. My only guess is that there is a better attack pattern I can be using than I currently am. At the moment I BT/WW on cooldown with hamstring between with HS as rage/aggro allows (aggro is generally not an issue). Anything I'm missing here?

Profile in the sig though I use Claw of the Black Drake and CHT instead of 2x DB when dpsing (and CHT MH for execute swap).

livenletdie · 09/27/06, 4:36 PM

Makes perfect sense. Up to now I had been using it as a gear compare utility etc but a friend of mine challenged em to see if I could duplicate the dps rating the spreadsheet gave. Looking at khalim's post cleared things up perfectly, using "dps points" seems to give more an idea of what the sheet is made for. Also I recall from a LONG time ago Rishana claiming that crit was the most important stat until you reach "crit cap" of 28% for bosses, I noticed that your sheet seems to prove otherwise, which I;m glad to see. The statement still seems stupid to me even after rishana tried to parse it out.

• Ren · 09/27/06, 4:46 PM

Originally Posted by Karr

Originally Posted by Khalim

The total DPS number is in range +-10-15% in my experiance but obviously not exact.

I haven't been wanting to ask since everyone wants to compare the worksheet to their actual output but I'm seeing a difference of about 30-40%.

I figured I'd be a bit closer to perfect scenario of the worksheet than I'm currently outputting. My only guess is that there is a better attack pattern I can be using than I currently am. At the moment I BT/WW on cooldown with hamstring between with HS as rage/aggro allows (aggro is generally not an issue). Anything I'm missing here?

Profile in the sig though I use Claw of the Black Drake and CHT instead of 2x DB when dpsing (and CHT MH for execute swap).

Out of your weapon choices, I would use Deathbringer/CHT for boss fights, along with Edgemaster's Handguards. CotBD is gimping your damage because you can't get any +unarmed skill. If you aren't 100% confident about your timing (I'm not), it's best not to use Hamstring at all. Hamstring adds a neglible amount of dps at the end (TF is the exception), and it can cut into your BT/WW/Overpower timers, which caps your damage. A few Hamstrings a minute is the way to use it.

For Patchwerk at any rate, I find that the spreadsheet deviates only about 5% from the dps I get. One reason why the spreadsheet number may be slightly less is if Patch has less than 20% mitigation after debuffs. The spreadsheet values may be slightly more because of human reaction time and latency.

Originally Posted by Livenletdie

Also I recall from a LONG time ago Rishana claiming that crit was the most important stat until you reach "crit cap" of 28% for bosses, I noticed that your sheet seems to prove otherwise, which I;m glad to see. The statement still seems stupid to me even after rishana tried to parse it out.

The crit cap is 29.8% if you have no +hit gear.

Attacking from behind with no +hit%, this is what you'll get
40% Glancing Blow
24.6% Miss
5.6% Dodge
29.8% Hit

The above with Recklessness
40% Glancing Blow
24.6% Miss
5.6% Dodge
29.8% Crit

Every 1% +hit gear increases your crit cap by 1%.