Zynth

While the above is most certainly true on paper and mathematically sound, it's not always true in practice. The 30% needs to be triggered via crits. The longer you go w/o a crit the more time you spend w/o the haste increase.

For example, lets way we're doing grobb, you get the poison/disease (i dont remember wtf it is), move out away from the raid, 10 seconds running out, 10 seconds running in. you now have to start your flurry all over again. But, the RGN totally screws you and get 4 misses/dodges/non-crits in a row. With the 2.0 speed weapon you lose 8 seconds until you get back into 30% speed, with the 1.0 it was only 4 sec.

 

Geo

I meant in relation to rage norm and glancing blows. It is there that one can dictate what is better especially with the rage norm weapons have to be hitting a lot harder under the new formula then they previously had too. which makes the understanding a little more complex then one would imagine.

Such as reports of a claw of the frost wrym while flurried is only generating 1 rage per hit where as something maybe a tad slower by a few points of a second generate 2 rage per flurried hit and is the same dps as the claw. Then on top of that add in glancing blows where the slower end weapon will be hitting generally harder then the claw. As you can see it is a little confusing with new variables thrown into a dps warriors equation


edit: basically what im saying is that under the new rage normalization law and no way to counter glancing blows there is probably a preferable speed for an offhand rather then the old philosophy of get the fastest weapon you can. Something that will generate more rage over time and still have comprable dps. This is something that hasnt been explored yet and quite frankly it is very hard to model it correctly with so many new variables thrown into the already hard to understand rage generation

 

Geo

Ok i did some rough math on offhand rage generation, I took a 2.0 speed weapon versus a 1.5 speed weapon of the same dps and i found the answer to which everyone is dieing to know now.

The question is: which is a better offhand fast or slow?

the answer is.it doesnt matter on speed anymore at all as long as weapons are the same dps rage gain is exactly equal. This is in a normal enviroment and a glancing blow enviroment.

Things i took into account however is i assumed perma flurry (really not hard to keep up perma flurry imho) and the level 70 rage normalization formula and i didnt take into account misses because even at different speeds they will miss the exact same % but nonetheless can be relevant


edit: ill do a 2.5 speed weapon to see if my results vary at all (doubt they will) and if someone twists my arm i suppose ill post the math

edit #2. Even with the 2.5 speed weapon of the same dps its the exact same. The only major difference between weapons is unbridaled wrath. a 1.5 speed weapon will see about 9 more rage per minute versus a 2.5 speed weapon

 

Andrise

Don't forget JoL procs. :D

 

Zeboim

I did some research on whats statistacally significant. To figure out how much +crit each +skill gives within 0.01% crit with 95% certainty you would have to hit something 96,000,000 times. I'm sorry to say, but you will have to wait for a blue to tell you exactly what it does.

 

Zexika

I'll be the one MS Warrior in our guild to keep up Blood Frenzy in 25-man instances.

I chose these 2 specs:

33/28 with Flurry

41/20 with ER

Which spec do you think will be better as an off-tank with at least 33 points in Arms? Or do you have another build for maximizing damage in PvE including Blood Frenzy?

 

EmiliaEQ

1.5 Rage/Minute is not what i expected, i hoped a bit more.
Also dont forget a very important factor beeing sharpening stones (which are cheap as dirt, comparted to the 2% critic ones)
A +8 Stone on a 1.4 Dagger, will add 5.7dps, on a 2.9Slow, you'll get 2.75dps.
Thats a 3dps bonus in favor of the dager.

Why does the 0/31/30 dual sharpened daggers seem so appealing ?

 

Apate

I think that the 33/28 build you posted would be rage starved. Even with ER, I took unbridled wrath because there were too many times that I found myself 1 rage point short of using a special when I wanted to. That said, I'd still go with the ER build.

See you, auntie.

 

Geo

In Bc rather early blacksmiths are introduced to adamantine sharpening stones as seen here :
http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=2098

Not at level 70 the crt rating of 14 wont be 1% but rather .6% i believe. so its crit and +12 damage which are basically better then the elemental sharpening stones.

So i think this does favor faster weapons a tad but makes both weapon types viable



also im not sure about the 0/31/30 build. 1h weapon spec doesnt effect bloodthirst and even so you miss out on so much ap to get 1h weapon spec not to mention deflection which is the best damage mitigation talent for warriors. Basically im relating the 0/31/30 build to much like the 25/36/0 build. Going 25/36 is trading in about 500 ap if not more for 5%crit or such. The ap is much beter then 5% crit imho. Same philosophy with the 0/31/30 spec.

 

Deathwing

1H and 2H weapon spec affect ALL damage, where did these rumors start?

 

• frmorrison

Likely the WoW General Forums, there is so much misinformation there, but do apply mod that increases all damage dealt when using the a 1H or 2H weapon.

While the tooltip may not update if you get either of those warrior talents, the Hunter talents that gives 2% more damage when the pet is alive and the 3% more damage Inspiration buff will update the weapon damage tooltip, i.e. Crossbow 100-200 damage x 5%.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

• Ren

Is it true that the rage normalization formula takes into account hastes? If so, is +8 strength a better enchant now? How about Crusader versus Iron Counterweight?

 

Geo

I was under the assumption regardless of the aura that bloodthirst does not rely on weapon damage. BT can be used while dsarmed as well. So if your disarmed does the aura from the weapon spec then go away or still apply even though you dont have a weapon equipped when using BT?

It is true that rage normalization does take into account for hastes. But rage normalization has nothing to do with a decrease in white damage. So while under any type of haste you will still see that % gain in white damage even though your rage wont reflect that. Haste is still good (i consider 2% haste = to 1% crit but crit yields more rage where haste has no effect on rage generation basically)

 

• Darkmyst

Bloodthirst does not require a melee weapon. It's damage is based soley on your AP as far as I can tell. Victory Rush would be unaffected by weapon specs also for the same reason.

 

• Darkmyst

Has anyone done the math on this? I suspect that as Fury you would add more DPS to the raid than your BF buff will.

 

Apate

Deathwing is saying that the weapon specs (1h/2h) affect all damage, not just "requires melee weapon" abilities.

I'm curious about the question regarding the bonus while disarmed, though.

See you, auntie.

 

Deathwing

Bad logic, or else the thaddius buff wouldn't affect BT damage.

1H and 2H spec are "mod physical damage" aura, and all damage a warrior does is physical, with the exception of some weapon procs.

I assume most people here have been charmed by Skeram? He applies a 300% damage increase aura. Now, that alone, in some tank gear too, would not account for why my deep wounds would tick for 1k while charmed. The 300% modifying weapon damage, and then modifying deep wounds again for an effective 900% increase does account for the huge damage increase. Hence, you can draw from that example 1H and 2H spec affect all warrior damage.

Curiously, this also might mean that 2H spec increases MS damage by ~10%, depending on how much weapon damage is compared to the static part of MS.

 

shalakiri

Hello all,

First off let me say, astonishing work here guys. I was trying to figure out a lot of this stuff on my own, but it's a total joke compared to what you've done here. Really nice stuff.

I have a couple of questons, which others who are reading this thread may have as well. These might seem a bit basic, but I'd still love an intelligent answer from folks who really know.

1. Can someone explain the crit cap, and how +hit mitigates it?
2. Can someone explain why +1% crit is not more damage than +1% to hit? I was figuring that the +1 To Hit would increase damage by 1% but that +1% To Crit would increase damage by about 1.5% due to Flurry, however the spreadsheet doesn't seem to support this. Is this related to queston #1 above?

I have some others, but I'll just post those two for now, because answers to those will let me ask more intelligent ones in the future. Thanks again.

 

GoG

Hmm

Well Skeram aside, can any arms warriors out there attest that their deep wounds tick 5% higher than they would expect because they have 2handed weapon spec? That would be confirmation of this effect enough if the amount the deep wound was ticking for was modified by 2handed weapon sec "aura". Should be easy to check.

Gog the Shaman
Ferall the Warrior
Orthrus the Warlock

 

Geo

Ill try and answer your questions the best i can but i may be wrong.

1) The crit cap is established by glancing blows. A crit cant glance and a glancing cant crit.or thats what i assume. With glancing blows in place youll always have a % of attacks that will glance that of course being 40% of all your white damage attacks on a mob 3 levels higher then you or so i understand. Now if you glance 40% of your attacks then you can assume you get get up to 60% crit hypothetically before taking into account DW miss rate and doges/parryies before they glance.ala the crit cap. +hit wont mitigate the crit cap from what i understand because +hit overrides a miss...so if you hit even if you are at the crit cap your hit will be turned into a glancing blow. Hope i said that right....

2) Crit used to be better then hit after around 8% hit. And crit is still a tad bit better then hit because it procs flurry but not so much now because of how the haste is working in rage normalization. But i always thought of it this way and is very much the case now:

crit is twice the damage of a hit so double damage from your auto attack
hit is infinetely better then a miss but its still double damage of what you would have got
so crit = double damage and hit = double damage....therefore crit is = to hit before taking flurry into account.



hope that explains my take on things from the spreadsheet and of course can be wrong


edit: now here is a good question...are white hits on a 2 roll system between a regular white hit and a glancing hit?

 

shalakiri

Thanks Geo/Margot,

That makes things a bit clearer, but does that mean you can eventually get to a point where ALL of your non-glancing blows crit?

Say for example a single d100 ToHit roll (with 0% +ToHit): 1-5 = dodge, 6-29 = miss, 30-69 = Glancing Blow, 70-100 = Hit w' a chance to Crit. If your +% ToCrit was 31 or more, would you crit on EVERY non-glancing hit?

Another question, I was just messing around between BG runs, going around killing level 1 stuff, and it looks like I was getting about 1 rage point per ~35 damage that I did. How does rage "normalization" affect this? Does it reduce the amount of rage you get per damage based on Flurry?

Speaking of "normalization", I understand that using a faster off-hand weapon is important for Flurry procs etc, but are there any penalties for using a dagger? I've read about damage "normalization" for using a dagger, but I'm not sure what damage "normalization" means within the confines of the WoW combat system. Does it apply to Warriors or only Rogues, and what are the actual values/penalties? A detailed explanation of this would be helpful.

Thanks again for clarifying things for me. I'll try not to ask too many more newbie questions, I don't mean to de-rail the thread.

 

Mcgriddle

Just a little curious--what do most DPS warriors think about using leather (rogue-shit, I suppose) for DPS gear? The guild I'm in (I'm somewhat new to it) seems to think that not using plate is stupid simply because you're a warrior. The topic came up over Gloves of Enforcement dropping off Sartura and I heard some "why wouldn't a warrior need stamina and armor?" calls in vent...

I'm pretty sure I know what people are going to say but I just want to be sure.

 

Grayson Carlyle

I've worn leather (Cadavarous Armor) and I'm currently wearing 2 mail pieces: Scaled Sand Reaver Leggings and Savage Gladiator Chain. I wear the mail in PvP, solo, DPS and for most of duoing Stratholme. I only actually wear plate when I'm against a boss that does a lot of physical damage (Timmy, Doctor Theolen Krastinov, Rattlegore, etc...). It's just AC, and AC only matters vs physical damage. *shrug*

 

Geo

Crit overwrites hit so you cant say hit w chance to crit. its more like this with your example and say you have 20% to crit :

1-5 = dodge 6-29=miss, 30-69=glancing blow 70-89 = crit, 90-100 = hit.

Why i asked early on a 2 roll system with hit and glancing blow is because it would be like your example more or less but instead of crit it would be hit and would be something such as:

1-5 dodge 6-29=miss, 30-79 is a hit or glancing blow and 40% will be glancing blows meaning you get more hits rather then glancing altogether because 60% of 50% of your hits will be hits not glancings, 80-100 =crit


Rather then go in a long spiel about how terrible of a handicap rage normalization does ill give you some base numbers that you can do easily on what you are looking now for rage. Basically for crit rage for the same amount of rage you would be getting pre-2.0 you need to be doing 50% more white damage on average. for regular hit rage versus pre-normalization on average you need to do about 70% more damage roughly under the new rage normalization. I didnt think it was that steep of a curve either until i decided to plug and chug some math on arbitrary rage values. I think deathwing noticed this too but not too sure and he can speak for himself rather then me putting words in his mouth :P



Offhand weapon type doesnt matter. Only time not to use a dagger is when its in your mainhand. Daggers on special attacks are normalized at 1.7 speed. Swords/maces/axes/fists are normalized at 2.4 speed. This matter very little until you get into overpowers and whirlwinds but WW and OP has always been in a warrior cycle for dpsing.or at least should have been so dagger mainhand is a big nono.....dagger in the offhand makes no difference

 

Geo

Kindly give them an example of a healing pally or balance druid using cloth, it falls basically under the same category.

A DPS warriors job is to maximize damage [u]and not get hit or pull aggr[o/u]. If a warrior is not going to get hit stamina and armor are just fluff values that have nothing to do with the corresponding job.

As an example.i would care less if tomarrow 1/2 my dps gear got its armor reduced by 1/2 of its armor value. DPS plate isnt there for tanking its there for damage. Likewise on downgrading an armor level, dps warriors are after the damage stats not the armor or stamina.

As far as a PVP side of things goes....the days of pvping in 4500 hps is basically over due to such high burst damage now from the caster classes so when i pvp i actually throw on a bit of tanking gear.not for the armor value but for the +stamina because the majority of damage you take in PVP snt physical damage which armor helps mitigate