I'm having trouble seeing how you came up with these formulas
Ok let me try to elaborate. The basic formula for hits from lvl 70 toons is
rage = (7.5*dmgDealt/274.7 + 3.5*weaponSpeed)/2
To calculate the weighted sum (expected value) of rage generated from hits, we use the formula
rageEV(hit or glancing) = P(hit)*rage(hit) + P(glancing)*rage(glancing),
where P(hit) and P(glancing) are the probabilities for hits and glancing hits.
Plugging in, we get
rageEV(hit or glancing)
Unfortunately I don't know the english terms for what I actually did here mathematically, but I hope you see what it was. ^^
My suggestion: Make more cells in the spread sheet, like rage generated from hit, rage generated from glancing, etc., then RPS from hit, RPS from glancing, etc., and finally sum everything up: P(hit)*RPS(hit)+P(glancing)*RPS(glancing)+.... That'd make those formulas a lot easier to understand IMO.
If I change the race on my spreadsheet to "Undead" it seems to bug out and stays that way even if I reselect "Dwarf". The hit, crit, hp values on the top of the "Gear_Buffs" sheet are shown as errors, same goes for the unbuffed totals at the bottom. With that the all the DPS sheets get lots of errors as well. I don't know if it's just me but it's been like that since the first version I downloaded which was something like 0.1.0.3.
It seems that the sheet also bugs if you try to give a talent a value that doesn't exist (for example 6 Cruelty) and I don't seem to be able to remove that error again.
I'm not very good with Excel so I'd appreciate any tips if I'm handling something wrong and it's not some problem with the sheet itself.
Also I know that it's lots of work but some of the listed items are very old and not used anymore (I think) and a few new, decent, items are missing. You said you don't like the data entries that much, I can totally understand it, but if there is some way to export my own items lists from version to version I'd really much like to know how to do it.
Minor thing: "This spreadsheet simulates the theoretical DPS output of rogues in a raid setting" (Intro sheet) you might want to change that just for the looks .
Additionally a socket slot for cloaks would be very nice since I have a Vengeance Wrap that doesn't have a 8 str socket, but that's a very minor issue again.
So overall a very nice spreadsheet and I very much appreciate the work you give it and I hope that some day it can be very close to being accurate. It already helped me with a lot of gear choices.
I've done just about every build possible at one time or another, and I see the dps potential of a 17-44 build but it seems to me that you need the gear for it.
I have good gear though I could upgrade a piece here or there. I'm currently 31-30 (or 32-29) when DPS-specced and do a very solid amount of damage (using Lunar Crescent).
I also have a Planar Edge and am debating which axe to upgrade to the T2. With Mooncleaver and 31-30, I'd have almost 31% crit in battle stance and 1650+ unbuffed attack power.
With a DW 17-44 build (likely using Black Planar Edge and Gladiator OH), I'd lose (at least) 6% crit and 150+ attack power adding in some +hit gems/gear.
So, would it be a side- or downgrade to go full Fury at this point until more gear comes my way?
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I am having some difficulty with the current spreadsheet. It is giving me "null" values for all of the values updated by DEP, however, there are no null values on the Gear_Buffs page (other than those that should be calculated). Initially I thought it was the dual "mongoose" enchant, so I changed to Potency (static 20 Str) to no avail. Secondly, I thought it was because I put talent points in attributes that "are not modeled," but clearing those had no effect either. I have noticed several invalid values on other pages, but am incompetent to modify them without royally screwing something up.
I have included the modified version of this file below:
Please forgive me if I am doing this incorrectly. If I am to take these complaints to a different forum/thread, please inform me and I shall do so. I have only read the first 5 pages of this thread and the last 10, but I saw no quotes in the latter to indicate that previous pages would contain answers to my questions.
So, would it be a side- or downgrade to go full Fury at this point until more gear comes my way?
I don't think gear is holding you back. Planar edge/Consortium Dagger or one of the gladiator weapons would be a nice combo (easy to obtain) and crit/hit/str are all pretty equal point for point so you wouldn't have to replace gems. With talents you will have 8% to hit and you will get +10% ap. BT should be hitting pretty damn hard raid buffed.
Names that (still?) don't work in OOo:
ChestEnchantStats
- is: $Chest.$A$48:$T$4150:$Chest.$Q$53
- should be: $Chest.$A$48:$T$53
LegStats
- is: $Legs.$A$2:$Legs.$A$2:$Y$30
- should be: $Legs.$A$2:$Y$30
With a DW 17-44 build (likely using Black Planar Edge and Gladiator OH), I'd lose (at least) 6% crit and 150+ attack power adding in some +hit gems/gear.
So, would it be a side- or downgrade to go full Fury at this point until more gear comes my way?
Why not upgrade both axes?
Also how are you going to lose AP with Fury? You get a 10% AP bonus just for being in berserker stance. There's no question dual wield Fury will give you better PvE dps results. It really just depends what you want to do with your character. Do you want to be fearsome in PvP and do *ok* damage in a raid or do you want to be *ok* in pvp and do a lot of PvE damage? Your answer will dictate what you should do.
I'm a prot warrior, 8/10/43. When I put in my spec, and remove all the buffs and leaving the existing gear as is. I get higher unbuffed execute DPS than buffed, any idea why that would happen?
P.S. found a typo, Chestplate of A'dal has 25 crit, in the spreadsheet it's 35.
The calculations for crit rate from agility are off a bit. For agility from gear, one gains 1 crit per 33 agi. However, crit gained from base agility follows a different conversion factor. Not sure how this works, but it seems to differ per race (each having different base agility), and is approximately 23.5.
A few typo's:
Ogre Mauler's Badge --> AP should be 48+185/(120/15)
Glyph of the Outcast --> should have 17 Str, not 17 AP
Chestplate of A'dal --> 25 crit, not 35 crit
Inscribed Flame Spessarite (+3 str, +3 hit) --> should be +3 crit, not +3 hit
Orcs have +5 Axe skill
- Rounding the combat ratings to 2 decimals increases accuracy.
- Adding 190 instead of 160 to the total AP gives a value that matches with Blizzard.
Cycle notes - bt, ww cycle hs dump:
In my data example more rage is generated than is used by btx5, wwx3 and hsx12 and #instant comes up 16.4, where I think it plainly should be a straight 20 global cooldowns in 31 seconds (with a 1 sec wait at the end for the whirlwind-specific cooldown to be ready).
Btw, I found this error. I22 on unbuffed and buffed cycles sheet are dividing by a hardcoded 10 for hamstring rage cost at the end, rather than C7 (which in my case is reduced to 7 by talents)
I've begun the design on new damage cycles and I'll have some time tomorrow evening to try actually putting them in the spreadsheet to see how they work out. Here are a few notes as a preview - I'll post the finished product as an alternative to the official spreadsheet and then we can discuss whether they are, as I think, any better.
My core problem with the current damage cycles is that you are comparing apples and oranges. You compare a cycle that spends 30% or less of the rage generated in the cycle with one that spends 100% of the rage generated. That the latter in many cases does more dps is neither surprising, nor particularly illuminating.
Few preview notes:
Damage cycles - new design:
Compress damage cycles to a short list for two reasons:
1. Overview - irrelevant cycles no longer feature prominently
2. Less code replication hopefully resulting in less errors
At the same time make all cycles compare on equal footing (particularly using the same amount (100%) of the rage available.)
Devices:
Liberal use of 'specced' and 'chosen' abilities, to whit:
6s (6 second cooldown): Cycles will make use of the 6 second cooldown ability that is specced (shield slam, mortal strike, bloodthirst)
GC (global cooldown): Cycles will make use of the 1.5 second cooldown ability that is specced (hamstring, devastate)
SW (swing, as in next normal): Cycles will make use of the chosen normal swing rage dump mechanism (heroic strike, cleave)
Cycles will be designed to if possible burn all the rage earned in the cycle period. GC and SW devices are both rage dumps. All cycles will have two rage dump configurations: GC dump priority first using all the global cooldowns in the cycle on instant ability (as it tends to have better damage per rage and helps keep up flurry) and SW dump priority (as it tends to have high damage per second). The elusive situation where the optimal dps is not to go all-out in either dump mechanism before starting on the other one will not be considered.
Cycles:
GC (1.5 second duration)
6s (6 second duration)
ww (10.5 second duration)
6s, ww (31.0 second duration)
NB:
Each cycle will have two DPS/DPR result, one for each rage dump priority.
Oddball specs without SS, BT or MS will have 0 in two of the cycles
Impossible specs with more than one of SS, BT and MS I will need to find a way to handle.
All current cycles are represented in the above list, with the exception of 7.5 second cycles which I personally would not miss.
Edit: Upon reflection (due to #instant etc etc) I will probably list these as 8 cycles so each line only has one dps/dpr number and one rage dump priority.
Any dps warriors from highend guilds here? IE TK25/Good progress in SSC. Just wondering what kind of dps warriors you bring on raids. I'm seing a tendency to bring a 2h dps warrior and no fury highend. Both because of blood frenzy and because of highend gear not really being set up for fury. Heck I've seen more 31/30 warriors than fury warriors in highend pve, is it just because people are too cheap to respec from fury setups or is the dps output that similar when they get a wf totem?
I'm starting to wonder if I should bother taking so much +hit gear for future fury spec, I've been 31/30 for quite a bit of time now, and it works in pve aslong as I get a wf totem, and in 25mans that shouldn't be that hard.
To return to my previous note: I took an hour yesterday to set up my new damage cycles, and with a few exceptions they are done. I'll add the polish this evening when I'd planned to have time to work on them and post them sometime tonight or tomorrow for review.
The formulas have gone a bit complicated as a result of what I'm trying to do, but I'm pretty sure about the accuracy and liberal use of the $ qualifier makes it highly copy-pasteable across lines.
I ended up with 7 cycles - of the 4 mentioned above to be doubled it doesn't make sense to double the first (GC, 1.5 sec cycle is already a GC dump and only needs the SW dump). The cycles have a base of abilities that define the cycle length with their non-global cooldowns (shield slam, mortal strike or bloodthirst with 6 sec, whirlwind with 10 sec). In addition both a GC (global cooldown spam, like hamstring or devastate) rage dump and a SW (next normal swing like heroic or cleave) rage dumps are implemented. Priority is given to one type of rage dump, which means that the cycle attempts to burn all available rage on that rage dump, and if any is left over it'll start doing damage using the other rage dump.
As of right now I have 10.5 and 31.0 second cycles, and I'm considering either rescinding this and going down to 10 second and 30 second cycles for the cases where you do not have enough rage to use every global cooldown anyway - I may end up using both lengths (extra cycles) or having the cycle length vary depending on if there is enough rage to keep it going. Upon examination a 30 second cycle is never really possible. It would only be possible to fit 3 ww and 4 6s into a 30 second cycle, as opposed to the 3 ww and 5 6s of a 31.0 second cycle, so that one seems safe.
The efficiency column has been updated with rage costs from rage dumps, so it will only go below 100% if all global cooldowns are used and all normal swings are turned into yellow swings (be it heroic or cleave).
I changed the 3 defined names (value lists) that cause trouble in OpenOffice again.
I left in the original spec and equipment choices, except that I changed out of the Hourglass of the Unraveller. It caused an error that I didn't want to spend time tracking down.
With the default fury spec the 6s, ww, GC priority dump and 6s, ww, SW priority dump come out with the exact same dps/dpr etc values as the only two cycles that currently have rage dump mechanism built in. Exception being that my new cycles will automatically adjust to shield slam or mortal strike if thus specced.
For the SW (on next swing like heroic) rage dump I have what I know to be an error. I use the default swing speed for the weapon rather than the swing speed hasted by flurry etc. This means that if you produce enough rage that you can spam heroic in addition to the base abilities in your cycle and not run out of rage - this result may be inaccurate. It's not so likely an outcome that I feel uncomfortable releasing it in its current form though - but I'll try to see if I have a good answer for it.
When I load the spreadsheet in openoffice 2.2, I keep getting Err:508 in half of the input windows. Anyone have any tips?
[04:04:29] <Malan> Kaubel just laid the smack down in the the blizzcon thread
[04:05:07] <Kaubel> fucking idiots. i need to go on a banning rampage and put things right once and for all.
[04:05:20] <Kaubel> our forums are infested with pussy.
Simplified cycle pages, look at the top corner of the Gear Buffs page for cycle options.
Remember that my goal for the spreadsheet is to figure out gear in order to maximize dps. The cycles are just for a rough estimate of what the player should be doing. I don't even think a cycle is the most optimal way to play it just makes modeling easy.
Also, I only test with Excel so I make no guarantee about Openoffice.
Also, I only test with Excel so I make no guarantee about Openoffice.
Dang, Can anyone else try to confirm if it works with Openoffice, or if it's my copy of it that's not working.
::Edit:: By the way, could you add a socket on cloaks? Vengeance Wrap has it for example.
::Edit 2:: I'm not really into this, but is there any way to convert it to work in Openoffice ?
Last edited by ikillyouheal : 05/18/07 at 7:08 PM.
[04:04:29] <Malan> Kaubel just laid the smack down in the the blizzcon thread
[04:05:07] <Kaubel> fucking idiots. i need to go on a banning rampage and put things right once and for all.
[04:05:20] <Kaubel> our forums are infested with pussy.
Thanks for the simplified dps cycles. As I've mentioned I've been setting up some dps cycles myself and would like to submit them for consideration. The sheet I have uploaded here is based on the 1.0.9 version and in addition to the cycles I have made it work in OpenOffice by means of these corrections from an earlier post (row numbers updated to current valid values):
Originally Posted by Krennick
Open Office Calc 'conversion' notes:
Note: Update DEP comes up with a 'no script' error. Not sure what it was supposed to do anyway, but not likely to work right now.
Especially Open Office seems to be sensitive to the Feedback (Gear _Buffs.Q2) being flagged. Flag it off at least until everything else works and may need to toggle it off every time the sheet is opened.
Malformed names:
Menu | Insert | Names | Define ChestEnchantStats
Is: $Chest.$A$47:$T$4149:$Chest.$Q$52
Should be: $Chest.$A$47:$T$52 LegStats
Is: $Legs.$A$2:$Legs.$A$2:$Y$28
Should be: $Legs.$A$2:$Y$28 ShoulderList
Is: OFFSET($Shoulder.$A$2;0;0;24;1)
Should be: $Shoulder.$A$2:$X$25
In my dps cycles I have worked with 4 basic cycles, some having permutations and all having two rage dump options.
The two rage dump options are GC (Global cooldown ability - Devastate if you have it, otherwise Hamstring) and SW (on next swing ability - Heroic Strike or Cleave depending on your preference - Gear _Buffs Q6)
All cycles are listed twice. First with all surplus rage burned first on GC rage dumps and then (if any rage is left over) on SW rage dumps. Second with all surplus rage burned first on SW rage dumps and then (if any rage is left over) on GC rage dumps. In cases where rage is coming in faster than it can be burned through full use of both rage dumps the two different versions of the cycle return the same DPS, DPR etc.
SW rage dump takes into accounts how many swings can happen in the given cycle duration using MH Average speed from the unbuffed/buffed dps sheet P12.
Aside from Whirlwind, which is self-explanatory I use an ability I call 6s to indicate the use of the one of Bloodthirst, Mortal Strike or Shield Slam the character has specced.
Cycle Overview: Cycle 1: No cycle, just rage dump. Especially interesting for Devastate.
Cycle 2: Bloodthirst / Mortal Strike / Shield Slam only, 6 sec duration cycle with 3 global cooldowns available.
Cycle 3: Whirlwind only. Exists in a 10 sec version and a 10.5 sec version. If rage is insufficient for 6 Devastate/Hamstring in addition to Whirlwind in 10.5 second a 10 sec cycle duration makes more sense (with some global cooldowns not used) - and it will generally make more sense when SW is priority rage burn.
Cycle 4: Bloodthirst / Mortal Strike / Shield Slam and Whirlwind combined. Approximately 30 second cycle with 5 times 6s ability and 3 times ww. Two versions listed, one 31.0 with 5 6s, 3 ww, and up to 12 GC available, and one 31.5 with 5 6s, 3 ww and up to 13 GC available.
As discussed I completely agree that cycles should be taken with a huge grain of salt - they are pure theorycraft and far from reality. Rage doesn't come in fractions, nor is it used on fractions of abilities - and all cycles are unrealistic because they do not allow for even minimal lag. They are all better than best case scenarios with all rage generation bursts evened out for convenience and predictability.
Interestingly enough though - with varying amount of rage available either of the 10 or 10.5 second versions of can be better for you - also with some equipment and spec loadouts Devastate seems the best dps period if you have it specced, and you can safely ignore Shield Slam and Whirlwind both. And in other cases it seems that though Hamstring helps keep up Flurry etc etc - straight up using your rage on Heroic Strike may be just as good, if not a bit better.
All of these could indicate problems with the modelling just as well as hidden dps secrets, of course.
05/10/07, 3:25 PM
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