It's only good if you're killing mobs 2 or 3 levels above you and you have no innate +skill to work with.

Not true, the game knows what weapon type you have, so you would need +sword and +mace if you want less glancing blows on bosses.

I think this was accurate at one time but has since been fixed.

Well first off I would like to say this is a great spread sheet and thanks for all the work you put into it. Pretty much makes life a lot easier when deciding the best DPS items.

I seem to have run into some problems with the spreadsheet as a whole. The biggest problem I noticed is that while it takes effect of the orc racial of +5 axes, it is adding more weapon skill if your offhand is a different weapon. For example if I used an axe as a Mainhand and Maladath as an offhand, this spreadsheet thinks I have a total of +9 weapon skills. Altho I am not 100% sure but I am pretty sure both this is not how it is calculated in game. This problem makes it so that you cannot judge an offhand as accuratly since the weapon skill is being applied to it. Not sure how much damage you would lose with an offhand tho so not sure how much it matters.

The next problem or question rather is how does your mod calculate Crit vs Hit? I run into the problem all the time if I should use +hit items or crit/ap items as a DW warrior. Some examples are Quick Strike vs Don Julio's. I would assume the Don Julio's would be the superior ring simply because of the 1% hit, and only the loss of 24 AP. Altho while I do not know how much AP translates to 1% crit, according to many threads that speak about Glancing blows and such, +hit is suppose to raise your crit chance as well? This seems to also effect certain decisions such as Warlord vs Champion's helm, where my assumption would be that the Champion helm is pretty much a better helm for PvE. The main question is how does it calculate +hit vs +crit vs AP or rather when does one stat equal anothers in a PvE situation.

The last question is about HoJ. I totally agree it is a great trinket, but I would assume it was worst that Earthstrike or any similar trinket (Ouro trinket) however it seems to be quiet the opposite. To my spreadsheet it shows that Drakefang + HoJ yields more dps than Drakefang + other combos. Wondering about this because I was thinking about Kiss of the Spider but if this is true then it makes all DPS trinkets pretty useless. Also would it be possible to add trinkets such as Seal of the Dawn and its effects towards undead? I am fairly sure it is the best trinket to use versus Patchwerk however curious by how much.

Sorry about all the questions, it's just I am rather curious of all of this.

Again thanks :D

Hmmm, getting some big names here. Celandro, Hulksmash, maybe Aedak will stop by next. I'm glad you like the spreadsheet.

Ok, about +skill, if you think about it, that's something very tedious to code up. Unless someone has a better solution, what I basically see happening is that I'll have to add a separate +skill column for fists, maces, swords, daggers, and axes, severely bloating the main page display of my spreadsheet. It's not something high on my priority list of things to do, because I imagine most people that use +skill stick to using weapons that get the +skill bonus in both slots.

You can see the comparison between crit and hit in the final dps field. Basically, if you leave all your gear the same, change your QSR to a don juilio's, and the dps goes up, that ring is better. I'm not going to bother with equating hit to crit to AP because those equations are way too complex and are too dependant on what you're wearing currently. It's far easier just to plug in what you're wearing now and see which gear gets higher dps. Usually, what's better now will stay better for a long time. There's some exceptions like Band of Accuria.

I'm still surprised by HoJ. I'm still going through my calcs trying to see if I did anything wrong. I invite anyone to unhide those pages to see if I did something wrong. I'm in the process of creating labels for a lot of the spreadsheet cells to make it easier for others to understand my work. Most of the calc, enchant, and trinket page have been converted, along with about 1/3 of the dps page. So don't be afraid to dive in.

Either way, I think I might have done something wrong for Kiss of the Spider, especially since the rogues are going gaga over it. Perhaps HoJ is still better for us because we can abuse the Slow MH/Fast OH so well, while they are limited to fast daggers. Yes, I'll add Seal of the Dawn. Feel free to suggest any other items to add, most likely I just plain forgot them.

Actually Deathwing, I seem to be getting the exact opposite with QSR giving me about 2 more DPS than Don Julio's, where as I would have thought the opposite.

Well I still don't have a faster offhand that would make HoJ really worth it for me. As far as purely PvE dps goes I cannot see another axe come close to HWL for Offhanding purposes. The pugio looks tempting but I would rather have a dagger or sword from Naxx =)

The +skills is easily solved I suppose by just plugging in the correct number of weapon skill you have, however people need to remember that if you are offhanding something that does not have +skill then your overall dps will be lower.

I'm getting an error when I try to put the Deathbringer axe as my mainhand. The VLOOKUP in cell Q24 (proc DPS) is returning #REF! and is messing things up.

The DPS on slam goes _down_ with better and better weapons. And it is a better rage dump than anything else for a slow 2h. For 6s with imp slam, you're doing average_slam_hit DPS, which as buffed as the spreadsheet puts you and Sulfuras for instance, is easily over 1100 DPS.

I'm not going to claim any sort of accuracy with the slam calcs. This spreadsheet started out as DW only, 2H was added as a request, so I'm slowly fixing those parts out. I will look at the calcs again for the next release.

Deathbringer will be fixed in the very least you won't get the #REF error anymore. If someone could give me accurate proc/hit data, I could also fill in the proc dps field instead of just geussing.

As for HoJ, I know it doesn't seem that great, but I've modeled it to the best of my ability and that's what it tells me. I invite anyone to look at the calcs, extra set of eyes is always welcomed.

Also, for next release I plan to add a user-configurable cooldowns for most user abilities that don't have a long cooldown. This should help people who use playstyles that aren't regular.

Any chance this can be UL to somewhere else so i can download it? Save file seems to be having issues atm

Thanks

I didn't see this mentioned earlier in the thread, so I'll ask now...

I am playing around with max dps enchants to 2 1h swords and a 2h sword... What the xls is telling me is that crusader raises my white DPS by something like 9 points/sec over strength, and even more over agility. I'm not sure how accurate this would be, and if it's based purely on the fact that crusader procs X times per minute... even assuming that a constant strength enchant would raise my constant dps (time crusader is not proc'd), and agility would raise crit in addition to other benefits...

Now... While I could get +30 str or agi out of my 2h swords constantly (as opposed to counting on the procs of crusader, and assuming I'm in a fight situation where I don't need *self* healing), I'm still trying to calculate out how much difference there would be between this and a 2h with a comparable dps count...

Hope this all makes sense and any help is most appreciated...

Ok, I'm working on the next version, it's nearing completion. Just gotta work out this Hoj <--> Windfury circular reference, because the two can proc eachother. I was going through the slam calcs today(they're not as high as you'd expect Grayson because I subtract WhiteDPS for the duration of the swing), and I got a crazy idea.

What if they were going to nerf Windfury because it's going to both factions AND slam?

Stay with me for a minute. The major downside to slam is that you don't generate any rage while using it, making it a very short burst of dps. The melee swing timer reset(is that still in?) is also a downside, but mostly alleviated by stringing together your slams and timing the start very carefully. Anyway, IIRC, you can't proc windfury off slam. I bet that was getting fixed next patch as well. With windfury, hoj, and sword spec, you have a major source of rage generation while using slam. Sword spec and hoj alone aren't enough to make much of a difference, but they add a nice amount when combined with windfury.

Full bar of rage gets you 6 slams, giving you a good chance to proc windfury. Highend gear from naxx + leftover rage, that's enough for 3 more slams. That's 10 hits and another WF proc. 2 more slams, for a total of 13 hits, sword spec or HoJ would have gone off by then, giving you 1-2 more slams, and maybe another WF proc. By the end of this, you've probably put together 14-15 slams, 2-3 WF procs, and a SS/HoJ proc, all in the time period of 15s, which is some scary dps. By then, you'd need to cool off to generate more rage and to cool your threat. Yes, I know, I'm heavily abusing the law of averages, and short-term streakyness will ruin this. But as gear inflates, that type of chain or even longer ones become more and more sustainable.

Who knows, perhaps there were some new teir talents that made this all too easier, and they wanted to nerf it early. Though, I don't give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt when it comes to that much foresight. I think a slam build would be fun. Anyone ever think that TheoryCraft is more fun than the actual game sometimes?

No you haven't. Talented slam does not reduce the global cooldown. So you have a maximum of 10 slams.

With a 3.5 speed weapon you're getting 4 auto attacks, and at least 3 MS/BT, and if you get rage, 2 WW in that 15 seconds period. So you've gained.. 1 chance to proc WF, so there you go.

If you want to theorycraft, Seal of the Crusader+WF.

Now there's some good times.

I am not sure you are modelling Windfury properly. From the looks of it windfury is only being considered proccing off of white attacks which undervalues it's contribution. I'm still working out how you model a lot of this stuff so I may have more comments later.

Slam cannot proc WF or HoJ or SS.

Slam does not take up the global cooldown. You can use an instant right after a slam to get rid of the swing reset problem; you'll swing right after the instant. You can work it into a rotation as so:

0:00.0 Bloodthirist
0:01.5 Whirlwind
0:03.0 Build rage
0:06.0 Bloodthirst
0:07.5 Slam
0:08.5 Slam
0:09.5 Slam
0:10.5 Slam
0:11.5 Slam spree done
0:12.0 Bloodthirst
0:13.5 Whirlwind
0:15.0 Build rage
etc...

It depends on WF procs and hit timing so that you have at least 90 rage when you start the slams, but that's generally how I spend my rage.

I made the current release when windfury was going to be nerfed, so I changed it to the anticipated change. Since then, the nerf has been rescinded, so it will be going back to it's old form in 0.44.


By not taking the global cooldown, do you mean it's the same as bloodrage? As in, I can hit execute and then bloodrage while every other ability is on cooldown?

Anyone know if Blizzard has come out and said that rage-producing abilities, specifically WF, SS, and HoJ, aren't supposed to proc off slams? Or is a bug they'll eventually get around to fixing(like they'll get around to nerfing anger management someday)?

Slam does indeed trigger the global cooldown.

Regarding the Windfury cell, I figured thats what it was. Thanks.

Also, how exactly does the spreadsheet model yellow attacks? I'm a bit hazy on it and maybe missed your explanation in the previous pages.

So basically improved slam is a strong contender for most useless talent in the game as it does virtually nothing. I'm pretty sure i've seen Windfury proc when slamming but don't get the extra attack (so you see the sct message and the whirlwindesque graphic but nothing happens). Whether this is working as intended or not I don't know.

I have 4/5 imp slam atm, and checking combat logs, assuming no lag, it does indeed decrease it to 1.1 secs, so global cd isn't affecting it. Also, right after one lands, within the same second you can cast BT, this is easily seen in the combat log. If there really was global cd affecting slam, this would not be possible.

Deathwing:
As far as your spreadsheet, your calcs are wrong for slam (as you've said). Should look like this: ((N28+((NetAP/14)*O28)+87)*YellowHitMod-B46*1.5)/(15+B47*1.5) for DamagePerRage
((N28+((NetAP/14)*O28)+87)*YellowHitMod-B46*1.5)/(1.5-0.1*S34) for DamagePerSecond

Slam is not normalized to 3.3 speed, since it's not an instant attack, so the slower the better for slam. (Might of Menethil would be absolutely ridiculous due to it's speed) So, you get N28 (wep average dmg) + AP/14 * O28 (wep speed) + 87 (bonus dmg for max rank slam) and then the rest is your calcs.

Using this formula, going 0/5 imp slam gives you 442 dps with DEOI + max buffs, while going 5/5 imp slam gives you 663 dps. Fully talented slam is more overall DPS (while it's going) then BT + autoattack. This is very useful for fights where you have to be at max range and can't use WW. Also, consider that if you use the 100rage > slam slam slam slam > BT > swing > ... cycle, you can add BT DPS to your slam DPS, at least for the 5 secs you were slamming + BT, which is close to 900dps for those 5 secs.

If you could generate rage while using slam, it would easily be the most overpowered ability in the game. Now if only the talent trees were set up so I could get 5/5 2h spec + impale and 5/5 imp slam + BT :P

Hmmm, you sure about that? I was testing out the skill yesterday in EPL. I was using the cooldown timers on Discord Action Bars, it was saying 1.5s after each slam. Was it Discord assigning the wrong number?

Oh well, I doubt they'll ever fix slam to proc stuff.

Some thinking behind +skill items:

I've been thinking a bit about maladath, edgemasters, guantlets of annihilation, and hit/crit/ap based offhand (ill use iblis).

The spreadsheet puts maladath and iblis at about equal, assuming you use all +4 skill. Using edgemasters, you only obtain +3 skill effective (for glancing blows) from the maladath, as your total results in +11.

The math I did comes up with a value of 1 weapon skill giving the equal of 1.2 hit/1.2 crit as far as white damage is concerned. Obviously crit has added benefits of yellow damage, impale, flurry, and deep wounds.

In my subjective non math based experience, I've found 1 hit to be about equal to 15 ap, and a crit equal to about 25 ap in terms of sustained dmg, hence, putting weapon skill at 18 ap. In the long run though, crit/hit/skill will scale.

So in pondering some gear upgrades, it seems that if you are using a maladath, or if you are a human, annihilation would be superior to edgemasters. I guess one could pick up iblis and MH it, and it opens up your options to pick up an axe later on to MH (I wouldn't MH a dagger due to normalization, and maces don't get edgemaster skill)


Anyway, off my useless mindfart back on topic.....
I saw a suggestion about imp slam, each point 1-5 reduces the cast time by .3 seconds (bringing it to an instant 5/5), adding 1 second cooldown per point.

I'm still 50/50 on skill items. I know they are superior dps, but I hate them so much. Using level 44 mail gauntlets with no sta on them in Naxx is just so dissappointing.

Also, saying crit/hit/skill scale and ap doesn't is a common misconception. The scale in regards to each other. Getting more crit/hit/skill makes each point of AP more valuable, meaning it scales.

As for that slam suggestion...it's a good suggestion, kinda overpowered. I would prefer they fix slam to let things proc off of it. Sure, that would generate a ton of dps, but here aren't many situations in today's raid game where you can stand still for long periods of time and take no interruption damage.