Apate doesnt want a Spriest in his group. He wants the feral in the Spriest/Hunter/x group for better FI uptime.

I don't get it. If he isn't in that group, he won't get Ferocious Inspiration...And I don't really see how shadow priest is affecting the FI uptime since it is only due to crit chance: LotP makes sense, Vampiric Touch simply doesn't.

He's talking about giving up LoTP so the hunters can get the extra crit and a shadow priest for mana regen on the hunters, and as far as I know extra crit and extra mana and crit makes hunters happy.

Yes, every mana class would be happy with a shadow priest in their group....But there are classes who benefit far more than a hunter from Vampiric Touch.

Also, we aren't talking about hunters dps ways here

I think the 25.5x% miss rate that was found for rogues might be a bit misleading too. I've tried to find tests made without any +weapon skill, but haven't really found any, so forgive me for speculating.

If we assume that the miss rate is given by 8.6 (very well proven from tests with 2h and 1h+shield) + 19 (dual miss rate, given by blizzard) we get 27.6. Weapon skill is assumed to give 0.1 per skill difference, but what if this is not true? Perhaps there is a non-linear relationship. This means that we would get different results (per skill diff) using rogues with +10 weapon skill than for warriors/schamans with +5 or less. If we assume 0.2 per skill difference (at +weapon skill = 0) we get 0.2*15 =3.0 and find a total miss rate of 27.6.

Anyway, the default miss rate should probably be changed in the spreadsheet, 24.6 makes no sense. Not that this will make much of a difference (unless you're very close to the hit cap), but anyway...

Sorry, that was apparently unclear. What I meant was that a BM hunter can arguably add more damage (depending on gear, build, etc.) than a MM hunter. I know that last time I played with the spreadsheet (a while ago, in poor gear), FI gave around a 4.6% increase in damage. We have enough (excellent) rogues, though, that our groups aren't usually able to accommodate a feral, hunter, shaman, warrior, and rogue in a single group. WF for the rogues is too important.

Did you read my first post?

I'm referring to the DPS warrior spreadsheet which this thread is about. Sorry if I'm not supposed to ask questions about the sheet in this thread, but where am I supposed to do that then?

Ok maybe I went a bit overboard with the speculations, sorry about that then. The fact remains, miss rate used in the sheet is 24.6%. Is this really correct?

Since -armor is a common stat on Hyjal/BT drops, including the tier 6 dps set, is there any ETA on when this is going to be added to the spreadsheet?

Can it even be modeled ? Not every boss has the same armor, so it won't have the same effect on all of them.

Well, some armor value is already assumed in the sheet; it would make sense to subtract from it and leave you no more or less accurate than before.

Hello, I have been trying to use the spreadsheet posted on post #1414 but the stats it is outputting with the same gear that I have equipped are drastically different. Something to the tune of 3k less health about 3% crit and 2% hit. Am I doing something wrong? or has anyone else noticed this?

I'm gonna quote myself....Can someone post some data/consideration on this topic?^^

Well Danath...

From my on experience i can say that 2hand DPS in low and mid-tier raids gained a lot from the easy availability of strong weapons (BS or arena), Imp. Slam and the Blood-frenzy buff, not only in personal DPS, but also in helping the rogues/hunters.

However, due to better itemisation for feral Druids, and Prot-Pallys, DPS Warriors find it harder to get into a raidgroup, because their offtanking skills are not as uniqe as in vanilla WoW.

I can't say much about DW-Fury in TBC, because i always preferred 2-handers, but from what i've read it seems like they may be able to perform better than ranged DPS classes with high end gear and good group composition.

Still, as in vanilla WoW, what's holding me back is the aggro ceiling, and with Prot-Warrior aggro generation not scaling with gear as fast as DPS-Warrior damage, i think this will continue to be our Sword of Damokles.

May I also refer you to:
[Warrior] Future of a DPS Warrior

edit:
Anger Management is great!

Not only not unique, it's downright embarrassing. In tanking gear, not only their threat is poor, they can't DPS once their targets are dead either.

I said it before and I'll say it again, warriors need a skill that let them change armor in combat. Make it a 5 seconds channeled ability that breaks on direct damage

Definitely. A talent at the very least.

Add a linked talent for aggro reduction to it as well!
Such talents would be a very nice replacement for Imp. Rend.

I can't really see how that would be a good idea. Don't get me wrong, it would be a HUGE boon, but you would really be screwing the paladins and druids (and others).

A threat reduction buff would be fantastic, maybe as part of Rampage. DPSing as fury in OT gear isn't great, but it's more than you'd do as prot and you still provide the good shouts. Windfury is a huge boon in this case (well, every case) and with some potions you can still provide a worthwhile contribution.

Well, paladin should get a version of it as well. Not druids though, they already "change armor" via shapeshifting.

And it should not be a talent, but a base skill since Blizzard envision us as some sort of tanking/dps hybrid.

I guess that skill is a primary requirement, then. Well, that has always been part of our class anyway

I would still appreciate some data posted by a well geared DW Fury DPS Warrior. On Lossendil.com it's quite tough to gather similar data....Only very few fights show DPS Warriors at the top of the chart.

A properly geared tanking feral druid will have bad DPS in cat form. Maybe not as drastic a difference as a warrior, but bad. Tanking paladins are almost entirely useless after their target is dead, doing less damage than warriors in tank gear, and having awful healing.

Being a "hybrid" in this game doesn't necessarily (and often, doesn't at all) mean doing two roles simultaneously or even during the same combat duration.

But now I'm pulling us further off topic.

We just started using the WWS reports from our raids but I will give you some personal experience and opinions on MS and Fury and other hybrid classes.

I am a MS DPS warrior and we have a Fury DPS warrior as well and both of us are in the raids 90% of the time. I have noticed a few things about certain grps, Feral druids, BM hunters, WF group etc etc.

MS warrior first- I find this spec only can reach its potential with WF in its group. It helps with the rage problem and allows a better rotation of skills. Though we do no excel at every fight. The difference between rogues,fury is that they can still do sustained constant dps without WF and if the MS warrior has to move out of it he loses quit the DPS. We usually run a Shaman, rogue, rogue, warrior(fury), Warrior(Ms) grp.

Different guilds use different make ups so its totally up to your raid make up. Lord Fathom in SSC I did around 800-1000 DPS for the fight. Vashj stage 1, stage 3 I could stay around 1000 DPS as well( with WF ). Just a few examples. Though sometimes we have 3 rogues and the fury warrior is usually removed from the WF grp. Our Fury warrior is very good at his class and with hunter BM buffs and maybe a Druid he cant still maintain very good DPS. Though If I get removed from the WF grp for whatever reason my DPS drops drastically.

Fury Warrior has no problem being top 5 DPS almost every fight give or take a few(Usually at around 800-1000 DPS. They excel with WF even more. Now realize certain fights are friendly to certain classes more so its really hard to analyze ever aspect of the DPS warrior, but for almost any tank and spank fight that doesn't involve too much running around they are a reliable DPS class.

There is also 2 handed Fury( DW,Shield Slam) which ppl also love and its is a good spec as well.

Though the problem has been mentioned, our Threat. You say a fury warrior can hit the cap fast, well so can a 2 handed Fury or MS with WF in his grp. Thats usually what holds us back form being top DPS majority of the time. I think its designed this way by blizzard for a purpose and may or may not be changed, I doubt it. I usually just get 5 min Salv instead of light and I'm fine. If neither of the warriors get it we pretty much could pull aggro when we wanted.

I think the problem is the TPS generated by current warriors. The Gear, rage generation is scaling as fast which causes problems. Most warriors who have access use different weapons on certain fights, Mallet of the tides, Thuderfury, Kings Defender, etc etc. It plays apart into the boss fight.


As far as Paladin tanks. I personally like them, but I only like them for one thing...........AoE type tanking( example: Tidewalker Adds ).... Usually after their target/targets die they do become somewhat useless due to mana restraints.

As far as druids they are probably the most versatile hybrid class as far as DPS and tanking are concerned. I personally don't see many druids doing HIGH dps and usually you take them to tank cause they are good tanks, but also notice they take more dmg overall.

DPS warriors can tank just fine as long as their target is not the first to be killed. I use Lord Fathom as an example:
I will tank the Priest Add as MS DPS because time the raid gets to me after killing the hunter and Shaman, I have enough aggro generated.

If I have to tank Trash adds. They usually just kill mine 2nd or 3rd and works out fine. Now how your guild works out off spec loot, dkp, roll, need, blah blah is one thing but I have pretty good tanking gear as well so its not like I will be getting rocked by these adds.

lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character

If the link doesn't work: crit 8, hit 7, ap 4, str 10, agi 7. You can fudge with the numbers if you want to, it doesn't change the outcome much