I really wish lootzor would add haste rating and armor pen.

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Here is a Gruul kill with a pre Mag guild just getting into SSC and Eye

oh and no WF totem

I was just wondering, if at anytime is it better to get Mongoose on your off hand better than having potency, if so.. what should my stats be to make it profitable to even use?

With Haste stuff like Dragonstrike or Dragonspine and 12%+ Hit Mongoose is equal. More and it gets better.

I can get somewhere around 240ish hit with keeping ~29% to crit, along with 1800-1900 AP in zerker stance unbuffed... with those stats would it be worth it to grab a mongoose on my off-hand??? If so, should I get a slower weapon to go along with it?

Be advised that we usually dont have a shaman in the group, seeing as how we're hurting bad for some in my guild... lol

Are these just rough estimates? Or is 12% hit and a dragonstrike really the breakpoint for Mongoose > Potency?

I'm curious because my AP has recently spiked with the acquisition of a bloodlust broach and the engineering goggles, while my crit languishes, and the added crit/haste from mongoose seemed like it might be a good counterbalance to this. However I haven't taken the time to try and run the numbers on mongoose v potency myself.

Obviously the value of mongoose is Dependant on your attack power and the DPS of your weapons, since crit and haste both scale the constants of AP and DPS. The problem I've been having is I'm not that good with statistics, so I'm having a hard time pegging the exact value of mongoose on the OH. Once I know that number I can sort of hash out at what level of AP/weapon DPS mongoose will become greater than potency.

I'm going to try and work this out once I get off work, but let me just throw this out here so that someone can correct me if my methodology is wrong(Which is quite possible). Assuming mongoose is a 1PPM enchant, I should evaluate my averaged haste from procs, trinkets, and possibly haste potions, as well as my averaged flurry uptime. Then I can get a very rough notion of the the true PPM of mongoose on my offhand. Where I get fuzzy is in figuring out how overlapping procs and my chance to miss interact with the uptime from my offhand mongoose. Also, is dividing the amount of haste gained from Abacus of Violent Odds and Haste Potions going to skew my conclusions?

Rumor has it that having having both your weapons have the same speed would give you 4 swings of flurry per crit instead of 3.
This however has yet to be confirmed.
Flurry is discussed in the thread [Melee Combat] How does Flurry Work?, so if you have any insight and data concerning this, please add it.

There's been some discussion on the merits of using Heroic Strike as part of the damage rotation. The idea is that since HS is on next hit, it reduces the overall amount of rage generated, and thus overall damage output.

Having said that, I don't seem to have rage issues often, so typically I BT and WW when they're up (switching to Imp WW in my next respec to try that) and HS when there's rage, which is almost always (ie. if I HS, it doesn't prevent me from throwing in a WW or BT when their cooldown is up).

I raided with my guild consistently through all the pre-BC content, and up until our first Mag kill, then went to a casual status, where I just run Kara with the alts on Saturdays. Feel free to check out my armory, but basically it's decent Kara gear with some quest blues still. On fights where I DPS 100% of the time, I do between 550 and 630 average DPS (for example on Prince). Nothing spectacular, so I'm just looking for some insight into making the most of my DPS role.

My group typically (read never) includes a Shaman or feral Druid. I keep BS up, and I often throw on a Flask of Relentless Assualt for the fights from Nightbane - Prince, but I could be better about keep sharpening stones and strength food on.

So, recap... is HS a good part of a Fury warrior's rotation, and in general what tips can anyone offer on maximizing DPS. I feel like in naxx, for example, I was putting up good numbers, but I'm not so sure post-BC. Granted, the guild has generally moved on to Hyjal/BT, so I can't compare myslef to that gear level, but I'm looking to maximize performance for what I have.

@Kanan, I use Herioc Strike as my absolute last rage-dump. I use BT/WW, and then hamstring on the remaining GCD's. If I'm still close to getting over 60~ rage, I start pumping out heroic strikes untill I drop to 40~.

But still, it's all a matter of gear. Since better gear = more rage, resulting in more stuff to do and more rage to dump.

If you don't have WF, Heroic Strike might work out better than hamstring. Fight for a totem.

The idea is not to reduce the amount of rage generated. The more rage the better! You would never want to intentionally lower your rage generation.

The idea is never to have a full rage bar and thus waste any additional rage generated. Heroic Strike and Cleave are the only abilities you can use that generates additional damage when all your instant abilities are on cooldown and Hamstring is not dumping your rage fast enough. And as discussed a lot on these forums, Heroic Strike generates less threat per damage than Cleave. In other words, if a DPS warrior is riding the tank on threat using Cleave as a rage dump, he would be doing more damage while riding the tank on threat using Heroic Strike.

That's what I'm saying. I haven't tested it, but the theory is that HS reduces the total amount of rage generated because it's on next hit, thus eating the rage you'd generate with a conventional white hit... which is BAD.

And as I said in my original post I don't have a problem with being rage-starved. By the same token, I don't think I'm sitting on a full rage bar often either.

When you reach the point where you can't use all your rage on BT/WW/hamstring, you have to start using heroic strike.

Even without the totem, I still think it would be better, so that you can keep flurry up even more, and it helps with procs.


I read the discussion on cleave a few weeks ago, and it all makes sense on paper, however; has anyone actually tested it? I got into a debate with a friend of mine about it and he claimed that the way cleave worked on a solo target was this: When you hit with cleave, it calculates the threat as if there were two targets, and when it goes to calculate the threat on the second target, it doesnt because there is obviously no target.

So if I were to cleave a mob for 1000, I'll disregard the multipliers since they are not factors, it would calculate the threat as 1000+(130/2) for the first target, and then it would attempt to calculate the same threat for a second target, but it wouldn't since again there is no target. The result would be 1000+(130/2) instead of what the discussion has been about, and that is 1000+(130/1).

I'm up in the air about it, and about to test it myself. I thought I'd ask before I spent too much time.

@Kanan- 10 mans dont really do warrior dps much justice, since there are restrictions on things like pally blessings and group setup. that being said, i really havent found myself in an encounter yet where ive really been rage starved. even without LoTP or WF, i can still heroic strike when BT/WW are on cd while spamstringing. with either of those two, if i didnt use heroic strike i would probably be at a full rage bar. if, however, we were sacrificing rage that made us unable to use bloodthirst as soon as its off cd, id say yeah, that would probably make your dps take a dip, however, in my experience that is really never the case.

yarrick- do you run with a feral druid in your group most of the time? the reason i ask is because it seems like it might be somewhat difficult to keep flurry up alot without it. though i suppose with a feral druid, a sharpening stone and a major agil elixir it wouldnt be as much of an issue. if not, just curious as to whether or not you've had the opportunity to test out a higher crit/lower AP combination and what the DPS difference was.

someone was asking about wws for a fury warrior.

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the whole bloodthirst-whirlwind-hamstring with heroic strike as a dump is lovely in theory. In practice i have to be careful with badly timed whirlwinds. I am generally pretty good for rage and am happy to be pretty liberal with Heroic strikes. Of course this can lead to threat problems, however the warlock-warrior synergy of a total threat dump generally serves me well.

Though not my gold balance.

The most recent spreadsheet I've seen does not allow 2h weapons as choices. Is there a spreadsheet that's up to date that will allow 2h MS data?

Can't say I've tested it myself, but conventional wisdom is that the threat is divided equally amongst affected targets. If you Battle Shout and there is 1 mob in combat, you generate 60 threat on it. If there are 2 mobs, you generate 30 threat on each mob. Makes sense that it would be the same with Cleave. Hitting one mob with Cleave would give you 130 threat on it.
Threat - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki

So is hamstring still superior to HS below ~60 rage without windfury?

So could some one point to the post that goes into why hamstring would be better than HS? I thought the only reason to use hamstring over HS was if you were having threat issues and if you were burning your rage to fast.

It has a chance to proc trinkets/effects.

Conventional wisdom seems to be hamstring if you're under ~60 rage, HS if you're >60 rage and not near the threat cap.

I don't have the maths handy though.