I don't think that anyone has actually updated the warrior dps spreadsheet in some time. Last time i looked it didn't have any BT/Hyjal gear on it at all. I would love to see a new one if someone has one out there though :P
That's the least of my worries since you can easily add items yourself, although the Windfury change is not there, which might cause problems for people using it.
[04:04:29] <Malan> Kaubel just laid the smack down in the the blizzcon thread
[04:05:07] <Kaubel> fucking idiots. i need to go on a banning rampage and put things right once and for all.
[04:05:20] <Kaubel> our forums are infested with pussy.
Heroic Strike, Cleave, Slam take the weaponspeed.
Mortal Strike, Whirlwind, Overpower take the normalized speed.
Haste rating of course doesn't decrease the damage multiplier for attackpower as it'd be useless otherwise; calculations use the base attack speed.
Thanks a lot for the quick response.
Yes, it would have been quite useless, but I just was not sure.
As for the calculations (PPM enchants): the base speed is the nominal speed - am I correct in this?
What rotations do you guys use for dw fury. Do you just spam shit non stop fast. Or...
Also i never used Hamstring for such things. Until i heard about this so i might start trying it. But now windfury was nerfed - hotfixed in. So hamstring wouldnt proc wf, nor does bloodthirst or ww. So heroic strike or cleave is better now?
Also The vengeance wrap- is it better than the cloak from mag and cloak of inciter? or even the cloak off moroes.
My hit rating is 213. Is that good? i have in zerker stance unbuffed 1830 ap. and 27.17 crit.
i have like no gems for hit in my gear, jus bonus's and static stats.
What rotations do you guys use for dw fury. Do you just spam shit non stop fast. Or...
Also i never used Hamstring for such things.
I still use a hamstring spamming BT-WW-hs-hs-BT-hs-hs-WW-BT-hs-hs-hs-(repeat) cycle. Hamstring still procs Flurry and it can still crit which helps you make more efficient use of Rampage.
So heroic strike or cleave is better now?
Whether Heroic Strike and Cleave are options is entirely dependant on threat.
Also The vengeance wrap- is it better than the cloak from mag and cloak of inciter? or even the cloak off moroes.
It depends on your gear. If you have sufficient hit% and crit% then yes Vengence Wrap is better than all of those for DPS. Many Fury warriors use the Moroes cloak because it's one of the few with a significant +hit rating on it.
My hit rating is 213. Is that good? i have in zerker stance unbuffed 1830 ap. and 27.17 crit.
i have like no gems for hit in my gear, jus bonus's and static stats.
Those stats are fine. Adding crit would probably get you the most bang for the buck right now.
do you think i could sacrifice hit for more crit? or should i just try to up those current stats with out sufficing.
+Hit is a subject of much debate and equally as much misunderstanding in the warrior community. Strictly speaking after you get +8.6% (with precision, which doesn't show up in the character sheet) the value of +hit as a DPS increasing stat drops off markedly and AP and crit start increasing in value relative to hit. That said most DW Fury warriors try to keep thier hit rating from gear in the 190-220 range.
What about my post after that for duel mongoose. Sorry i dont do bad in raids for dps. I usually get atleast top 5-7 without WF. top 3 with WF. Im just trying to better my stuff.
What about my post after that for duel mongoose. Sorry i dont do bad in raids for dps. I usually get atleast top 5-7 without WF. top 3 with WF. Im just trying to better my stuff.
The draw back to Mongoose is that it's hella expensive compared to other options. Prior to the WF nerf Potency and Mongoose on the off hand were basically a wash, either provided roughly the same DPS add. I suspect that the WF nerf (haven't done or seen the math) has tilted the argument in favor of Mongoose/Mongoose.
+Hit is a subject of much debate and equally as much misunderstanding in the warrior community. Strictly speaking after you get +8.6% (with precision, which doesn't show up in the character sheet) the value of +hit as a DPS increasing stat drops off markedly and AP and crit start increasing in value relative to hit. That said most DW Fury warriors try to keep thier hit rating from gear in the 190-220 range.
Haste items as well as Windfury (now) favor hit more than crit. The problem isn't that you aren't hitting or critting enough, it's that you're missing too much. All hit does is removes the chance for a miss, which increases the chance for procs. Crit and hit will yield similar gains at certain gear levels, but haste demands you miss less. Crit affects both auto attack and specials while hit (after 8.6%) only effects auto attack, haste has zero effect on instant attacks.
Haste items as well as Windfury (now) favor hit more than crit.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Sure, for procs and WF +hit will be good, but how does haste enter into all this. If you have +5% crit, 5% more of white attacks will give +100% damage. +5% hit will allow you to hit 5% more, thus adding the same amount of damage. If you're hasted the added damage will be exactly the same, just over a shorter time period. Or am I missing something?
is there a updated spread sheet taking into account the new WF nerf?
I've done some editing in the spreadsheet, but I'm not prepared to post it here (I might have introduced loads of errors into it, my spredsheet skill is still struggling at 100/375...)
However, the WF nerf can be changed quite easily in the sheet. On the "Unbuffed DPS" and "Buffed DPS" pages you can find a table where the damage from different abilities are listed. The column "Adjusted damage" (in both pages) contain damage from an ability (averaged over hit and crit but also with added damage from WF procs). The proc rate for WF is 20%, if you change this to 0 in these cells the instants should no longer be able to proc WF.
E.g, for Bloodthirst the adjusted damage can be found in cell H4, the expression for this cell is:
The WF proc chance is the 0.2 in there (0.2*H10, H10 being the adjusted WF damage), I changed 0.2 to 0 in all the cells with adjusted damage for all instants. So in total you should change this in the cells: H4(BT), H5(MS), H6(WW), H8(OP), H9(Hamstring) (Devastate is for some reason not modeled with WF in this spreadsheet, has it always been off WF?). DOn't forget to change it on both Unbuffed and Buffed dps pages (the same cells).
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Sure, for procs and WF +hit will be good, but how does haste enter into all this. If you have +5% crit, 5% more of white attacks will give +100% damage. +5% hit will allow you to hit 5% more, thus adding the same amount of damage. If you're hasted the added damage will be exactly the same, just over a shorter time period. Or am I missing something?
A miss, hit, crit string will give the same white damage as hit, hit, hit (barring talents), but the miss isn't going to a) proc Windfury or b) renew a proc (both those that may have an internal cooldown and those that do not). When you think about procs and Windfury, they favor hit while hasted. Or rather the lack of a miss. You could argue that the same could be said unhasted as well, so haste would mostly be irrelavant, but you're obviously going to get many more Windfury (or any other) procs within a specific time frame while hasted at 50%+ speeds the less miss you have.
I'm not suggesting you replace whatever current crit rating you have with hit, I'm just saying that hit is now more important than before TBC, and after you have whatever crit rating you are comfortable with for Flurry you should chase hit. Within reason obviously. The idea behind "perma Flurry" (which does not exist) was to have enough crit so that it would keep refreshing itself, which meant you wanted at least 1/3 of your attacks within a Flurried state to crit. You want similar results with procs, especially haste procs...haste begets haste. The only way to ensure a higher chance is to remove miss.
You could argue that the same could be said unhasted as well, so haste would mostly be irrelavant, but you're obviously going to get many more Windfury (or any other) procs within a specific time frame while hasted at 50%+ speeds the less miss you have.
Ok, I understand what you mean now. But to me it would seem that the extra procs you get from being hasted (which is what +hit gives you more of) is a second order effect in the total damage (with hit, crit and haste being first order effects). You would then also have to include second order effects from crits (notably Flurry being up more because you get more crits while hasted).
Anyway, I'm a bit uncertain if the extra dps you can get by adding +hit in the form of more procs and WF (both second order effects), really can make up for the extra dps you get out from +crit (that gives more "first order" damage than +hit due to the yellow hits being capped at ~8.6% +hit).
The only way manageable way of testing this would be to use the spreadsheet and make sure that the procs are modeled in the right way. When I use the spreadsheet +crit is always favoured over +hit, both with and without WF, haven't played around with procs though. Maybe there are some thing missing in the sheet that I haven't thought of.
Think of it this way. +Hit is not absolutely better than other stats because it only affects white hits after 8.6%. However, haste increases the proportion of damage that is white hits, since all yellows except HS/cleave are on GCD. Thus haste makes +hit better than it was before. The effect is small if you heroic strike every swing, and grows larger the more you are rage starved/threat capped.
The draw back to Mongoose is that it's hella expensive compared to other options. Prior to the WF nerf Potency and Mongoose on the off hand were basically a wash, either provided roughly the same DPS add. I suspect that the WF nerf (haven't done or seen the math) has tilted the argument in favor of Mongoose/Mongoose.
WF totem only affects the MH anyway, so the nerf shouldn't have any affect at all.
When thinking of it a bit more I realised that WF might actually be wrongly modeled in the spreadsheet. According to wowwiki (and tooltip) it has a 20% proc chance on *hit* (i.e. only swings that land will trigger WF). Misses will not trigger WF. If crits counts as hits in this respect there is no difference for adding crit or hit, they will give the same damage increase. Can crits trigger WF?
The error in the spreadsheet is that the WF damage is added as a flat "0.2*average WF swing damage" bonus (e.g. cell H2 in the Unbuffed dps page), shouldn't it be "hitchance*0.2*average WF swing damage"?
Yes, anything that says "on hit" just means an attack that landed (hit or crit). Misses don't land though. :p
And while I totally suck at math:
"hitchance*0.2*
looks like it would make more sense, but I think the original formula is setup to factor in the average boost you will be getting. The average would already be considering the hit/crit/miss of all your other white MH attacks wouldn't it?
Yes, anything that says "on hit" just means an attack that landed (hit or crit). Misses don't land though. :p
And while I totally suck at math:
looks like it would make more sense, but I think the original formula is setup to factor in the average boost you will be getting. The average would already be considering the hit/crit/miss of
all your other white MH attacks wouldn't it?
Well the fact that WF can proc off both crits and hits (the gained attack can also crit or hit) means that +hit is not favoured because of WF.
The damage from a MH swing is modeled as (with D being average swing damage and CD average crit damage):
The first formula is wrong imo, the WF proc is here just added to the dps as an extra hit, while it should in principle be modeled as being dependent on the hit+crit percentage (i.e. landed hits%).
Changing the cell to:
And aren't there really two factors in play with the actual proc?
You have your chance to gain a Windfury attack, then you have your chance to actually hit, crit or miss the actual attack. Maybe that's not correct, but going by WWS that's what is going on.
i decided to get a SEP value for each dps stat as close to 2H MS/Slam spec as possible with the best gear available on the spreadsheet. and here are the results (only take then as a grain of salt)
- used DW mechanics with 24% miss rate and such. this will overvalue hit rating and other stuff (used S2 Gladiator sword for MH and Death's Sting without enchants on offhand)
- results with the new spreadsheet are with relentless earthstorm meta (not doubting it yet but it may have some flaws in it's beta formula)
- no imp slam incorporated into the cycle
- socketing as much crit while getting the socket bonuses
- 31/30 build
- buffed stats: 3365 ap, 43.82% crit, 8.54% hit
results: even after stacking your sockets with crit, crit is still more dps per item stat budget at endgame raiding. agility is still the best stat for warriors who sometimes tank in dps gear. my thoughts on buffs giving too much ap and not enough crit, therefore, making crit more worthy was right.
but further testing is needed. one with a spreadsheet capable of working with 2H weapons, incorporating imp slam into it's cycle, and BT/Hyjal gear is what we need.
I'm curious if this goes for fury warriors raidbuffed aswell. Since most here seem to value str > crit.
I'm curious if this goes for fury warriors raidbuffed aswell. Since most here seem to value str > crit.
My SEP (from my tweaked spreadsheet, with changes for WF) values are:
1 str = 1
1 crit rating = 0.85
1 hit rating = 0.7
1 agi = 0.57
pre-kara gear (approx 200 hit rating, about 1.5 k AP, 22.5 crit <- I know it's low, trying to get it up).
For DW fury, Str will be the most important stat due to the dependence on AP on both the main instant (BT) and on white damage (+10%AP in zerk stance).
08/16/07, 9:26 AM
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