It has a problem with armor pen for sure, probably not modeled at all.

The haste values it uses are definitely not post-nerf, so it overvalues haste.

Having not downloaded or attempted to use this program, I'm just going to say that armor penetration is going to be incredibly hard to model because of the different amounts of armor on different mobs/bosses. Is the modeling you're seeing being calculated on un-sundered targets?

Along the lines of armor penetration-
One of our warriors is fairly convinced that armor cannot be negatively penetrated. The lowest it can ever be is 0. This is after some testing he did with hamstring hit values on targets while wearing -ac gear vs not. This leads to the potential of wearing too much -ac to the point where it's not doing anything except wasting stat points for the user. Are there any sort of listings of approximately how much armor each raid boss has?

After doing some more testing I realize that I'm wrong. Basically crit and str both scale with each other and they can both reach a point where one will be worth more than the other and vice versa. My initial testing was using a constant crit rating of 34% which is where my character is at currently. No matter how much AP I added the dps increase would remain the same. It seems to be that at a given crit rate AP will have a static increase in dps, which is why I came to my initial conclusion about str. But what I didn't test was increasing crit and its affect on AP. As you increase your crit rate AP becomes more and more valuable. So after a certain amount of crit you will start to see Str giving more dps than 1 crit rating.

My initial conclusion about crit being worth more than str at high levels of AP was right, but my reasoning was incorrect. The reason its right is because its easy to reach high levels of AP 3000-4000 with raid buffs. At those levels of AP, crit becomes really valuable because in a sense your crit rating is too low for your AP and you will get more dps off of one crit rating than 1 str. I continued testing to see at what point str will be better dps than crit with 4000AP, and I didn't hit that point till I reached around 50% crit or higher. With my gear I would rate crit and str equally and maybe crit a little higher.

Regarding hit rating, I would never socket for it or gear for it and as long as I have 9-10% that would be good enough. It gives less dps than 1 crit or 1 str and is no longer important because of the glancing blow reduction. Even if you had 0 hit rating you wouldn't get crit capped till around 45% crit.

Seems like this creates a line of inflection on a strength vs. crit graph, where the line is where 1 str = 1 crit rating. The line would be different based on your build, but would be very useful for quickly comparing item relative strengths. I guess the spread sheet will do this, but it won't have a nice graph . There also isn't a 2H DPS spreadsheet anyways.

Some other issues I noticed from the code here:

http://wowequipoptimizer.googlecode....arrior/Fury.cs

It looks like the cycle he uses is just BT + HS with spare rage - his model doesn't use WW at all. I think he's using 75% as the modifier for offhand damage, rather than 62.5%. And I didn't look at his flurry calculation too closely, but it doesn't seem to have any sort of feedback loop based on instant attacks per 3 white strikes.

That's not to say I could do any better, and the tool is definitely awesome, but maybe these should get thrown on a Todo list somewhere.

Ya it would be nice to be able to graph it out, but I don't really have the time to do that. Plus this isn't considering haste and armor penetration. I haven't gotten my hands on any of the BT/Hyjal gear so I haven't bothered to theory craft it but eventually warriors will have to balance str, crit, haste, and armor pen.

There isn't an updated version on the first post, but a more recent version was on pg. 57, post #1414

However, this version doesn't account for the most recent windfury changes. It's fun to mess with, but not very accurate in it's current state.

Am I correct in my assessment that Tsunami Talisman and Hourglass of the Unraveller provide the highest DPS increase? Madness of the Betrayer can't be modeled, and I have no armor pen gear so I don't know how good the proc is compared to TT or HotU.

[Dragonspine Trophy] and [Madness of the Betrayer] are the best. I modified the Sheet for Ignore Armor and they seem to be the best.

Just out of curiosity, how did you model -armor in the sheet? Assuming an armor value for boss mobs and working from there?

I just stole it from the Rogue sheet^^. I think it just takes an average ac value, 7.5k.
At least it works and I have some numbers to compare. Ignore Armor is worth it.

Is there any way to deal with the fact that the spread sheet still does not have certain items (The Decapitator, Furious Gizmatic Goggles)? Will inputting the raw stats work?

You can add items. Instructions are, I think, in this thread. They might be in the notes, also. For the decapitator, I modelled the use ability as (avg damage/cooldown) and added it to the DPS since I hit it every time it is up. It does slightly higher DPS on trash, but that mostly works for bosses. You don't get rage from it, so feel free to model that part however.

350? Max rank battle shout with 5/5 talent and the trinket is a total of 470 AP I thought. What's the 350?

70 AP more per person in the party. So that is 70 extra ap x 5 party members =350ap raid gain

Or 70 ap x 1.25 for talent = 87.5 ap x 4 people that are not you = 350 ap buff to others.
Either way, an 87.5 ap trinket is pretty powerful.

Since I got more time I went back to work with my own sheet. Once again I'm confused on some of the tricky bits of flurry.

The spreadsheet uses 1-(1-Crit%)^(3+Instants*1.5*MIN(OH speed, MH Speed)).
I understand the general formula but I don't understand the last bit with the speeds. What is its purpose? I think its supposed to do with weapons using charges generated from instants but I don't see how it works. When I tested various speeds in the sheet before the numbers didnt make much sense at all.

Yeah, the flurry modeling is really tricky. I'm not sure I understand it either, but the min(OH speed, MH Speed) must somehow be used to account for the fact that the oh can "eat" up flurry charges triggered by instants. Not sure this is the correct way to model it, but it produces reasonable results for me at least.

If you get problematic results out it might be because you're using circular refs (triggered by the flag in cell Q2 on the gear buffs page), it seems a bit unstable (particularly for open office). I can get it to work sometimes. The circular refs give you a lot better modeling of flurry uptime (I think it's iterating until the you get a convergent value for the flurry uptime).

Also, you should note that the flurry uptime modeling needs to be changed for the WF nerf as well (in the "instants/sec" cell)

Just a final question (to make sure), can glancing blows trigger WF procs, anyone knows?

Maybe I'm using the wrong version of the spreadsheet, but I put Dragonspine Trophy in any of my trinket slots and the total DPS goes down... so am I doing something wrong? Or is there a spreadsheet out there that models haste correctly with the upcoming nerf? Or armor pen at all? A link to this would be extremely helpful, or an idea for the Excel-challenged to modify the current one would work as well.

It didn't seem right that DST would model such a poor DPS output, but hey, I can't argue with the spreadsheet, right?

Other issues included my actual DPS going down when I substituted in higher DPS weapons than my current weapons. (Wicked Edge of the Planes MH, Malchazeen OH) for (Rising Tide MH, Swiftsteel Bludgeon OH). I thought it was weird, too. :P

Glancing blows should trigger windfury and other procs as far as I know, I haven't seen anything to the contrary.

Any math whiz have a better way to model flurry that can account for weapon speeds?

A couple pages ago, but I couldn't let this go.

Say what? Potency = 20 str. Crusader would have to have an uptime less than 33% for Potency to be better. 1H Main Hand w/ Windfury uptime is roughly 60% now. Crusader > Potency. Same is true of Savagery. 2H Crusader uptime in a raid is ~75%. 60 * .75 > 35.

Potency should never be considered for a main hand, and it's pretty ludicrous to be comparing it to Mongoose. Assuming Mongoose is 1ppm like Crusader, then they are in fact so close to each other in effectiveness that you'd have to run stats on your gear to find out the value of str and agi in your particular setup, and it applies to even more people with the haste rating nerf, since it's contribution to power drops by 25%.

You wrote "1H Main Hand with Windfury uptime is roughly 60%." First off, how do you figure that? Why would Windfury matter with a 1ppm enchant like Crusader? Ok, so 1ppm means one proc per minute. A Crusader proc lasts 15 seconds, 25% of a minute. Wouldn't that mean a 25% uptime per minute? Where is the 60%?

I haven't read up on how the haste formula change applies to the Mongoose Enchant. Lightning Speed is said to be a 2% speed increase. Is that because the enchant gives a set haste rating number, or will it always give a percentage?
Also, yes, Mongoose appears to be ~1ppm according to WWS parses.