I run 46/0/5 as well, incredibly competitive when raid buffed. I chose the more utility/Pvp based talents than max'ing my poison damage for PvE like Kalman did. I fell in love with Imp Sprint since the rogue review, so I absolutely can't live without Fleet Flooted. This also opens up your boot enchant for another 7agi(because personally I think minor speed increase is the best PvE boot enchant anyway) so you can view it as a small dps increase and helpful in some raid encounters^^.

I ran 5/5 Imp Poisons when 2.0 hit, and I found myself running out of DP5 charges too fast on longer encounters, so I went with a 1/5 vile and 3/5 Imp and it seems to balance well in PvE and PvP. The 1 point in vile is very noticeable when fighting paladins, having them waste another global cooldown for a resisted cleanse is great.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhefotGsizVoZV

I've never run out of poisons on long encounters with 5/5 Imp Poisons. I do make sure to put on fresh poisons immediately before any boss encounter, though.

I decided to try a http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhefoEMoidVoZV build. If I have issues with poison applications, Ill swap points a bit.

Even with fresh applications before the pull, I've noticed that every Patchwerk and every Noth that I've done while spec'd Mutilate with 5/5 imp. poisons have completely consumed the IP6 from my offhand (Harbinger), and nearly consumed (~10 charges remaining) the DP5 from my mainhand (Maexxna's).

<crossfaction whining>Maybe it just takes us longer to kill those bosses without paladin buffs.</crossfaction whining>

Our kills average ~5 minutes, but I tend to wind up with 30-40 charges remaining on both hands last I recall. If you look at Spoon's log parse of my log, I'm seeing 80 Instant procs. Deadly, it's a lot harder to estimate, because it's actually counting ticks, not procs, but I typically have roughly even instant/deadly usage given my MF/BQP combo.

Traz, Do you have 2 or 3 phases on Noth? We have been on the verge of execute range before teleport 2 a couple times, but usually have him in the high 20s/low 30s before he teleports the second time.

The source of Rogue DPS loss is primary the skill nerf as far as I can tell. Even with combat potency, I'm about 5-10% off of my max on Ebonroc. The worst thing about the skill nerf is that while it had scaling problems (i.e. +10 was all you ever needed), it still represented a perfect raid mechanic for rogues in my mind.

Superior Boss DPS

As in, if you want bosses to die fast, you better bring your rogues. The best part of it was, it had no imbalance effect for PvP, where extremely high DPS is problematic. Every increase in DPS for PvE purposes for a one trick pony class make us too good in PvP. +skill had no effect, so it was a great stat in my mind.

I reapply before every boss fight as well. I don't run out every time, but sometimes I do on PW, Thaddius (I reapply after the jump) and other fairly long fights. I backed off on the Imp also because we still have some MS spec'd warriors begging for Windfury so I'm only poisoning my offhand, and being the control freak I am I want to make sure I will be sticking a poison on my target for the increased mutilate (ie don't like relying on other rogues, who knows if they'll die ;p). Personal preference I guess, where I once occasionally had problems with charges running out now I have none so I can rest easy in my cycles ;p

The skill mechanic was perfect for rogues because it had 0 effect on pvp but allowed rogues to have good dps in pve. I thought it was genious to use the weapon mechanic to do that, and I argued for a weaponskill talent on the wow forums. I even called the exact size and position of the talent

Without a mechanic like that rogue dps seems to be doomed either be a) overpowering in pvp or b) underwelming in pve. In PVP obviously stealth, stuns, kick and especially our cooldowns compensate for only average pvp dps.

I don't use poisons to trigger the Mutilate bonus; our hunters are *very* conscientious about keeping Scorpid up. I use them for damage.

Rogue pvp dps without cooldowns is dreadfully low. Probably the lowest of any class besides paladins. That being said, rogues also gain a lot of unique skills in pvp such as stunlocks CoS (in tbc) quick burst, evasion vs physical dps etc etc. Low pvp rogue dps is attributed to, heavily reliance on other classes buffs. Cannot use our dps poisons. Cannot use dps finishers 50% of the time. I dont think buffing our dps for pvp and pve would hurt anything. I believe that is part of the reason they took away the +skill mechanic, so they can buff is more in pvp without having us being overpowered in pve.

Well one of the things that Blizzard obviously originally set out to do was to keep the dps class (rogues) from being insane in PvP, but I think its really gone too far. Using dual wield with the fastest weapons in the game works out to be the least burst dps, while at the same time being specifically limited on damage from energy, outside of the initial energy push we're really left lacking. Time to just stand there and white that guy down.

While originally it must've seemed like a good idea (the synergy between rogues and raid buffs is a clear indication of how well it works) the improvement of ranged dps to be on par or better with rogue dps, and not really require raid buffs to do it, has been whats led them to be so powerful in PvP. A mage in a raid gains maybe 15-25% more dps over what he does in the open world only self buffed, while rogues do easily 50% higher, or possibly even more, depending on the targets armor.

and yes, I too thought that the +skill was perfect for rogues, but if what Pf says pans out to be true (ie this will lead to an overall dps buff for both PvE and PvP) I think that'd be excellent.

The change to AP/Agi itemization in BC pretty much makes up for the weaponskill nerf, and gives us way, way more damage in PvP.

I think this is mostly due to 2.0 changes being played with 1.13 gear. On the way to 70 each class should roughly see a doubling of hp, but damage will only increase what... 30%? Maybe?

This is good because often the first person to drop a disabling effect wins atm... fear, stun etc. Its bad because rogues do very poorly after thier initial burst where they spend that free 100 energy.

I'd like to see some more comments from TBC rogues on this. I feel that they probably had to make the rogue talent improvements a bit so so because with the new itemization the gains in AP were fairly large and they would have been completely overpowering with good talents.

I have to say, after a quick HFR run tonight (charcopy is working!):

The SnD/BS swap is ANNOYING AS HELL for a level 60 Mutilate build.

Only did the one run before everyone decided to go to bed, so I have no comment on itemization (other than one of our paladins looking at the blue drop off the 3rd boss and saying "Well, I'm glad I passed on the last Angelista's...").

Every (dagger) build I create usually includes enough points in assassination to get imp SnD.

So I do not think the swap makes any difference at all really.

The ONLY thing that has changed is that PvP builds do not need 8 points into combat anymore.

Also allows for snazzy SF dagger builds like 30/0/31.

annoying as hell for a level 60 mutilate PvE build only.

But once these changes come into effect you will be grinding, and therefore not really caring about SnD. So that makes it moot.


I asume thats what you meant anyway =)

Yes, but for some reason the devs at Blizzard don't see this so instead we get a completely useless skill that no one will ever take.

Just specced mutilate, tried it in one raid and got the basics down; snd and find weakness up as much as possible.

But im a little curious about what to do when i have 3 combo points...
I can either mutilate and risk wasting a combo point(seal fate), or use a 3pt finisher which (afaik) isnt optimal (or is it due to find weakness?).
I also find it hard to maintain any form for structured cycle, seems so much more random than 3/5/5 with 19/32/0 specc, or 5/5 with 11/40/0...

So im wondering what the more experienced rogues do at 3 combo points...
Any advanced "dps taccs" or cycles are also welcome.

Well, technically that's how the new stat works, it just scales a lot more slowly ... which is more a "tweak" issue than a design one, at this point.

If 10 weaponskill gave +5% to hit and +5% to crit to mobs higher level than you, nobody'd be here complaining about the weaponskill changes. It's a fair change, it's just not good enough yet (or, of course, we just don't understand how good it is yet ... how many of us REALLY understood how weaponskill worked through MC or early BWL? I'll be open and admit I passed on our first Maladath drop, despite being the top dkp rogue. :P)