discofiend

i'm loving mutilate for raiding. it gives me things to think about on the fly when managing SnD, Find Weakness, Energy, and combo points. even snore-type boss fights (loatheb, patch) are fun again. I think bliz did a *great* job with it as a talent.

 

Trazhenko

At 3 CP, I typically Mutilate and risk the ~50% chance at one lost CP. The DPE of a 3 pt finisher is just too low to do anything else. Maybe if your SnD is running out *right now* and you have 3 CP and 20 or less energy it might be more efficient to SnD next instead of waiting, mutilating, and then SnD with 5.

I pretty much do it like this:

Priority 1: Keep SnD up, and try to do so with 4 or 5 pt finishers.

Priority 2: Keep mutilates under Find Weakness. This means waiting till about 50 energy to pop finishers so you will have the 120 energy you need for 2xMut before the 10 sec buff wears off.

Priority 3: Get as many Evis's as possible at 4 or 5 CP as long as you can do so without compromising Priorities 1 and 2.

Additional Note: Cold Blood is to be used for mutilate when you have fewer than 3 CP.

There may be some merit to modifying Priority 2 to wait for full (or nearly full) energy in order to squeeze 2xMut + 1xEvis into FW. This means that your next FW will most likely only cover 1xMut though, unless you are lucky with Ruthlessness and crits.

 

• Glass

I agree. My only gripes with it are:

1) for a 41 point talent it should have just a little more punch.

2) for a 41 point talent it could have a friggin animation... ffs

but yes, it is fun to actually manage energy/points again...

 

• Avair

True. But that was probably before Shadow Priests were putting out more damage then us.

Really? I think you are far more optimistic than I. To be honest, I can't see them upping our DPS potential very much in PvP. From what I can see, there is no mass outcry from the general masses that rogues are underpowered. It really only at the top of the game that you see these valid complaints.

What I think is really holding us back especially in PvP is our cooldowns, stunlock and stealth. Rogues are hands down the best world PvP class, because they can surprise someone, blow 30 mins of total cooldowns and annihilate somebody with no chance for them to react. Then we suck for 10 mins. The fact that world PvP is irrevelant doesn't change the perception that rogues are percieved as unfair by those we play against.

Why? Because we surprise people (Fight me like a man!) and render them unable to react (stun lock). This is terribly frustrating, because opponents feel like they aren't in control. Add in extremely powerful cooldowns, and you have World of RogueCraft. Is that fair or representative? Heck no, but its a PR problem we suffer from.

 

◊ Asgorath

Couldn't agree more. I always found Combat Daggers a little boring, so it's a refreshing change to have to really think about how to spend your CPs and react to Ruthlessness and Seal Fate procs and so on.

 

◊ Kalman

Yeah. I don't think anyone thinks Mutilate, from a "fun to play" perspective, isn't a flat out success. As long as it holds up in the "worth playing in a min/max perspective" view, I can't imagine a reason to spec out of it.

http://mmorchive.net

The WoW forums, explained:

 

pf

This is pretty much the exact formula I used to model 4cp+ on the spreadsheet. It was the best dps formula I have come by so far for mutilate as well. Although the spreadsheet does not model coldblood, I personally feel it is most effective using it when you have 1 combo point (ie right after a ruthless proc) so that you can get an evis with 4cp under the effect of FW without risking any mutilates being outside of FW.

 

Sicks

You'd think you'd see how underpowered we are in PvP especially at lower gear levels. I've seen many people comparing CoS to Death Coil. Most people seem to be forgetting that Warlocks were pretty much free kills prior to that skill. That's close to where I feel we are right now. Casters are just ridiculous at the moment. And stealth is still unebelievably, frustratingly broken. Pets just keep on coming though that was supposedly fixed 2 patches ago. Vanish, of course, still doesn't work properly. I can't think of any class that we give substantial trouble in group situations. That said, I love Mutilate, and think our situation will improve substantially at 70.

Wodin\'s cat changed my life.

 

Sokkou

We are not underpowered. You are just terrible. Also, uploaded new avatar last night, update already!

 

◊ Kaubel

Be sure to tell me how useful your input is before I ban you for a few weeks.

 

Wodahs

I think that rogues just didnt get the lvl 70 boost others got, especially with this crappy wow 2.0. For example, we got mut, without shiv. We dont all have CoS. Imp sprint now fails a ton, It doesnt work as advertised. Combat daggers with combat potency builds, thats looking to be pretty hot, but you cant do it at 60. Wound poison gets buffed, but the buff fails to make wow 2.0. And the list goes on and on. I think, all things considered, that the delta in perf increase from 60 to 70 will be better for us, than other classes, due to them getting their synergies and buffs now.

 

Sokkou

Sorry :<

 

Tower

Don't forget Mutilates biggest weakness, no Envenom.

 

Wodahs

Yeah Tower, thats what I mean. They build in synergies, then give us half the skills for those synergies.

 

Qmass

I dont understand how people can think mutilate is weak without shiv or envenom...

It is easily the strongest 41 point spec in 2.0 as it stands now. I have never been able to take any other class out in cheap shot > kidney shot stun (not a true lock by any means) 100-0% - maybe really lucky backstab crits with prep or sf builds but not reliably.

Mutilate dominates as long as you can open and have the right talents. It relies on talents like no other spec, you MUST have imp kidney, find weakness and opportunity and you must have a poison on the target, the ealier the better. +dmg to poison talents are weak as hell but this spec benefits hugely from +chance to apply talents. Master poisoner and improved poisons are extremely strong because in my experiance it brings your first mutilate to almost a 90% chance (subjective) to have its 50% modifier.

The chain everyone has been doing since patch day: cheap shot > mutilate > 4/5CP kidney shot > coldblood mutilate (I have critted up to 2500 with this because it is the only mutilate, besides a tea'd 2nd that youll get all the bonus dmg modifiers up together) > mutilate > 5CP evis (barely have time or need it) and I have taken numerous people of each class, bar mages who can blink out of the kidney shot 100-0%. Never even considering how usefull shiv or envenom might be.

Deadly poison adds longer term dmg at the cost of gouge, I have been using cripping and instant generally, especially to save money by using rank1 crippling.

My gear is by no means fantastic, I have 25.5% crit and 840 AP unbuffed + hwl dagger MH fang faceless OH.

This absolutely will fail against people that have very high HP values since they will survive the initial lock but that is not many in the current BG system and you still have gouge to start a new chain.

 

Emily

Agreed. Mutilate, even without Shiv/Envenom, is very very powerful. It allows for great stunlock control with very high damage; playing it feels much more like Hemo than a typical Backstab build. My rogue is in a mix of Darkmantle and Blues, with Gutgore/Lobo, and quite frankly, other than mages and epic-geared demo locks, there's not a single class - regardless of how many epics they're decked out in - that I've fought where I don't feel 90% sure of victory if I get the jump on them. There's nothing like sitting out front of Orgrimmar on your crappy alt beating the warriors in Naxx gear from your own guild. When Shiv/Envenom are introduced, and I get 10 more talent points and some decent gear, I can barely begin to imagine the hurtiness. (I run with Deadly/Crippling btw, I like the joy of my Deadly Stack ticking down on a fleeing opponent, or taking out the chap who just killed you. And stuff generally dies fast enough that I don't need to Gouge. Running Instant poison increases that very annoying chance to not get a poison stuck on your opponent before CS wears off)

And from what others are saying it's very close to Combat Daggers for PvE damage but MUCH more fun; I can't see why a dagger rogue wouldn't spec Mutilate unless you're desperate for a Prep Spec to be honest.

 

Qmass

I should admit that I think mutilate will get rocked by people with more than 6-7K HP in DPS gear. I have no idea how the extra 10 talent points effects that, probably alot since it would allow for a much more 'normal' seal fate spec. You can only cheap shot > mute > kidney > mute > mute people that are not full t3 madmen but you dont face many people like that in bgs and in the expansion people will be closer together gear-wise... at least for a short while.

edit: I spose upon reflecting, my comment is retarded since this is the thread about burning crusade talents and in bc most have the kind of HP im talking about ruining mute and therefor maybe shiv and envenom are what is needed and im totally wrong about what the comment was reflecting and I apologise for that, I was aiming it directly @ current lv60 specs.

 

Kink

Agreed with the two posts above really =).

Envenom and shiv are not needed for mutilate at all. In fact, those two talents are needed together, but lack of both doesnt mean much to mutilate at the moment.

Poison lands on my targets 95% of the time between my CS and my mutilate. Why would I need Shiv? I ONLY will need Shiv when my finisher becomes envenom, and then I might throw a quick Shiv to get the poison back on my target. But truth be told, if I apply my poisons as often as I am right now I don't believe I will really be using Shiv much at all except in group PvP where I REALLY want to make sure I land/stack my offhand poison on my target (or need a quick 5 stacks for envenom and have the CPs).

There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.

 

Emily

Aye, the main use for Shiv I can see is getting poisons up on targets after your first one; when you're attacking two or more enemies, it can be a pain chasing after the second target either autoattacking and praying a poison lands so you can actually start some real dps on them, or blowing 60 energy on a non-poisoned Mutilate.

 

Kink

And QMass, I am not in any T3 gear yet, and I have kept T3 rogues locked down till death no problem with CS muti, KS muti muti.

But if you want to win and dont mind some CDs you could...


CS, muti, KS, muti, Blind, stealth, sap, vanish, wait 5 seconds, repeat the start and end with an Evisc/rupture instead of a blind.

If you have 120 energy and time your ticks you can probably eviscerate before the blind. If you use a tea you and trinket you can probably have a T3 warrior dead before the blind =)~.

The problem us rogues have is that if we use our cooldowns, we are godly.

There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.

 

• Avair

My understanding is that right now the Beta servers are a ghost town, so I'm suspect as to how much high level feedback we are going to get as to the relative power of rogues at 70, with good gear. I could care less for what class balance looks like right now, or in the two weeks I'm leveling to 70. Its the next year after that which concerns me, and frankly, I don't have a good sense of what that is going to be like.

 

• Glass

Why on earth would you vanish if you sapped the guy?

Also, I would hesitate to use a rogue vs. rogue fight as a basis on how powerful we are in pvp, since rogues have less mitigation than casters anymore.

If you really think you can kill a dreadnaught warrior with 260 energy you probably haven't gone up against one.

 

Wodahs

Qmass, you dont always have the option of getting a stun off first. Shiv is a way to guarentee you have a poison on before you mutilate. And, your comment on how fast your stacking poisons? That is a huge synergy between Mutilate and Envenom. And while imp kidney shot adds some pvp synergies, I do more pve than pvp, so I disagree on the requirement of a kidney shot to get my dmg in.

I am merely pointing out that many of the synergies between talents, are atm tweaked for 61 talent points and skills we dont get at 60. Having shiv/mut/envenom/cloak of shadows, and 10 more talent points makes the rogue talents stronger.

Anyone else a but upset that Mutilate, which suffers from the dual wield penalty on the offhand, will not be able to have dual wield spec and opportunity in a talent build at 70?

 

• Maestroquark

Everyone keeps writing off Gouge when used with Deadly poison. They're wrong. Gouge serves three functions:
1) Spell Interrupt
2) Positioning for Backstab/Mutilate
3) Time for energy regen/bandage

When using Deadly, you only lose part 3. Watch your Deadly Poison procs, and positioning is not a problem. Spell Interrupt is still as strong as ever.

It's not part of my standard cycle, but whenever my KS misses I find myself frequently using Gouge to as a tool towards another Mutilate.