QR works with everything. LS, Crusader, Bandages, Cannibalism, Pots, Whipper Root Tubers etc.
Doesn't work with Lifestealing, because the heal is actually a drain and therefore always equals the damage done. Works on everything else, though, apparently including food.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Mutilate is also pretty nice for soloing Elite mobs. Has Vanishing during a fight with a mob always massively lowered your experience or is this something new? It seems pretty weak to me that one of our abilities isn't meant to be used offensively against mobs.
Mutilate is also pretty nice for soloing Elite mobs. Has Vanishing during a fight with a mob always massively lowered your experience or is this something new? It seems pretty weak to me that one of our abilities isn't meant to be used offensively against mobs.
It's been this way with Feign Death since forever, I'd presume Vanish is the same way.
Even though I'm only just now levelling a rogue, I always saw Vanish (in grinding, anyway), to be an "oh crap, I'm toast" move.
DeeNogger: "No dot timer? Get your belt off, its spanking time."
Oh it is, but it kills exp big time. Way too much in my opinion I killed a level 66 elite at 64 and I vanished to get another cheap shot in so I wouldn't die in a few hits. Finally killed it got 354 exp. Rested. Had I not vanished it would have been easily over 2k exp. It just seems like massive overkill.
QR works with everything. LS, Crusader, Bandages, Cannibalism, Pots, Whipper Root Tubers etc.
Doesn't work with Lifestealing, because the heal is actually a drain and therefore always equals the damage done. Works on everything else, though, apparently including food.
Tests I and some other rogues from the German board did, indicated otherwise. The healing component is affected by QR. As long as the combat log indicates a healing effect QR will effect it.
When you're trying to compensate for the 98 base damage on a sinister strike at level 70 (not even looking at aggression, SA, etc), 0.1 or 0.2 second speed differences start to equal hundreds of attack power to get the same dpe. 2.7 is still probably too fast.
Those 20 points that you *do* use in subtlety are incredibly good in pvp. Prep is still a huge leg up. Ghost strike is very useful against hunter pets and rogues. Serated blades is very good for sustained dps and quite effective vs all classes (rupture damage being useful against warriors and kiting BM hunters, armor reduction on leather/cloth classes). I have no idea how many times I've beaten overwelming odds because I get a lucky run with cheat death. 30% chance to not die is HUGE when you're dealing with a mage's 2 second cast timer or a 2h arms warrior.
Yeah, I agree about combat, just pointing out the existance of 2.7 weps, is all :)
Well, Prep is great, yes, Ghost is good, and so is Serrated. The latter two bring the two rare subtlety talents that actually up your sustained damage.
But what about Master Of Subtlety, Shadowstep, Initiative, Imp Sap, Camo, MoD, Premed... hell, even Dirty Deeds.
Equally, I think at 60, you're right, cheat death is ace because loads of attacks (everything from JoC crits to arcane shots to everything mages do) can take 30-50% of your health, no problem. At 70 however, it'll be 'working' on a far smaller proportion of attacks and becomes consequently less useful, IMO. Compare to Combat where you have imp kick, imp sprint, vitality, nerves of steel, and then a ton of dps taltents. BF, AR and no KS misses are certainly not to be sneezed at in arenas either. Nerves of steel is probably at least as good as cheat death in terms of 'not dying' considering how huge those crowd control abilities are- especially paired with the appropriate head slot meta-gem.
It all really depends on how 'right' Blizzard have got Arenas at 70. If they're still over in 90 seconds, which they often are at the moment as people's gear still isn't that great, then Subtlety and burst are still good. Once everyone is resilianced to the max and fights are taking a lot longer, Combat's sustained dps and lack of reliance on crits (resiliance hurts assassination/subtlety builds most) starts pushing it ahead. I suppose I'm slipping into the realm of speculation here, but that's how it seems it might pan out.
Preparation is the end-all talent for arena fights. Going in there without it is going to make you meat against any other rogues, and far less valuable a team-member than someone who can blind and vanish twice.
"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long."
-Rorschach, Watchmen
Oh it is, but it kills exp big time. Way too much in my opinion I killed a level 66 elite at 64 and I vanished to get another cheap shot in so I wouldn't die in a few hits. Finally killed it got 354 exp. Rested. Had I not vanished it would have been easily over 2k exp. It just seems like massive overkill.
I'm pretty sure vanish doesn't decrease xp by a set percent, it just voids all the damage you've done to the mob pre-vanish. So if you vanish at 95% and proceed to kill the mob, you'll get almost all of it, but if you vanish at 5% and cs the mob to finish it off, you'll get next to none.
Preparation is the end-all talent for arena fights. Going in there without it is going to make you meat against any other rogues, and far less valuable a team-member than someone who can blind and vanish twice.
Blind is no more affected by Prep (as well as CoS). Therefore Prep is not as much needed as before in the arena. It will still be strong though.
Preparation is the end-all talent for arena fights. Going in there without it is going to make you meat against any other rogues, and far less valuable a team-member than someone who can blind and vanish twice.
Blind is no more affected by Prep (as well as CoS). Therefore Prep is not as much needed as before in the arena. It will still be strong though.
Indeed. Blind, CoS and I think Blade Flurry are all removed.
I agree that Prep is THE Arena talent. But the quesiton is, are all the other points you need to spend to get there (5-10 in MoD/Camo for example, 3 in Initiative etc.) well spent. You have to consider all 21 pts required to get it.
Even a full Mutilate build arguably spends its talents better 'on the way'- Imp KS, Quick Recovery, Vile/Imp Poisons+Wound, Even Fleet Footed+Anti-snare-boot-enchant are all as/more useful in arenas than early subt...
QR works with everything. LS, Crusader, Bandages, Cannibalism, Pots, Whipper Root Tubers etc.
Doesn't work with Lifestealing, because the heal is actually a drain and therefore always equals the damage done. Works on everything else, though, apparently including food.
Tests I and some other rogues from the German board did, indicated otherwise. The healing component is affected by QR. As long as the combat log indicates a healing effect QR will effect it.
Interesting. Wonder if it's different between live and beta, then, because a friend was bitching about it not affecting LS. I don't have an LS enchanted weapon on live anymore to test it with, though.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
I agree that Prep is THE Arena talent. But the quesiton is, are all the other points you need to spend to get there (5-10 in MoD/Camo for example, 3 in Initiative etc.) well spent. You have to consider all 21 pts required to get it.
Even a full Mutilate build arguably spends its talents better 'on the way'- Imp KS, Quick Recovery, Vile/Imp Poisons+Wound, Even Fleet Footed+Anti-snare-boot-enchant are all as/more useful in arenas than early subt...
100% agreed that prep is the single most impacting talent to have in the arenas, but I do feel that its impact will scale down as the number of players in the arena scale up. It will be almost a must have for 2v2s, but in 5v5s, I see it becoming less important, while still extremely good. 2v2s are the most prevalent arenas at the moment, so I think the perceived impact of prep is very slightly overblown.
Also, agreed with regards to the "filler" talents in sub. and assasination. In the curren perception, the subtlty talents leading up to prep are better geared towards PvP...and I think it's hard to even suggest that MoD and Camo aren't incredibly good...but it's also currently possible to pop out of stealth and make people explode, which I believe we'll be seeing less and less of as the game progresses. I'm skeptical at the moment that things like initiative and mod and camo-what I consider the exploding clothy talents-are going to be able to make up for the lack of sustained damage output at level 70.
actualy I see prep being more useful in a 5v5... I rarely have to blow it in a 2on2 (even against good teams), but against 5 people, the battle is going to drag on longer. So Having the ability to re enter stealth an extra time + an extra cold blood + an extra sprint in 5v5 is imo alot more valuable than it would be in a 2v2.
You should also not underestimate improved sap in areans. It is possibly the best possible CC at the moment since it cannot be dispelled and is 100% to leave you in stealth. CCing is extremely important in pvp and sap is gonna be right up there for arenas.
Mutilate is also pretty nice for soloing Elite mobs. Has Vanishing during a fight with a mob always massively lowered your experience or is this something new? It seems pretty weak to me that one of our abilities isn't meant to be used offensively against mobs.
It's been this way with Feign Death since forever, I'd presume Vanish is the same way.
Even though I'm only just now levelling a rogue, I always saw Vanish (in grinding, anyway), to be an "oh crap, I'm toast" move.
Wait I'm sure they fixed the feign death lowering experience ordeal. I never had any problems FDing on my hunter while gaining xp.
actualy I see prep being more useful in a 5v5... I rarely have to blow it in a 2on2 (even against good teams), but against 5 people, the battle is going to drag on longer. So Having the ability to re enter stealth an extra time + an extra cold blood + an extra sprint in 5v5 is imo alot more valuable than it would be in a 2v2.
You should also not underestimate improved sap in areans. It is possibly the best possible CC at the moment since it cannot be dispelled and is 100% to leave you in stealth. CCing is extremely important in pvp and sap is gonna be right up there for arenas.
Well, I suppose your actual concrete experience is a tad bit more valuable than my theorycrafting assumptions...I guess my only real point in prep becoming less important as the numbers scale up would have to do with the fact that with more people, there's more emphasis on what's going on at a macro level whereas with fewer people, there's more emphasis on precisely what each toon is doing. My point wasn't that prep is insignificant in 5v5s, but that its relative significance is less than in 2v2s, where prep can easily turn the tide of the entire fight.
No argument about imp sap though...the change is extremely welcome and overdue.
Doesn't work with Lifestealing, because the heal is actually a drain and therefore always equals the damage done. Works on everything else, though, apparently including food.
Tests I and some other rogues from the German board did, indicated otherwise. The healing component is affected by QR. As long as the combat log indicates a healing effect QR will effect it.
Interesting. Wonder if it's different between live and beta, then, because a friend was bitching about it not affecting LS. I don't have an LS enchanted weapon on live anymore to test it with, though.
Just run a test and QR doesn't affect LS on live servers.
LS healing is directly linked to the damage LS DEALS, hence why LS heals for more on Thaddius. Since QR doesn't make LS do more damage, it won't make it heal for more.
actualy I see prep being more useful in a 5v5... I rarely have to blow it in a 2on2 (even against good teams), but against 5 people, the battle is going to drag on longer. So Having the ability to re enter stealth an extra time + an extra cold blood + an extra sprint in 5v5 is imo alot more valuable than it would be in a 2v2.
You should also not underestimate improved sap in areans. It is possibly the best possible CC at the moment since it cannot be dispelled and is 100% to leave you in stealth. CCing is extremely important in pvp and sap is gonna be right up there for arenas.
Well, I suppose your actual concrete experience is a tad bit more valuable than my theorycrafting assumptions...I guess my only real point in prep becoming less important as the numbers scale up would have to do with the fact that with more people, there's more emphasis on what's going on at a macro level whereas with fewer people, there's more emphasis on precisely what each toon is doing. My point wasn't that prep is insignificant in 5v5s, but that its relative significance is less than in 2v2s, where prep can easily turn the tide of the entire fight.
No argument about imp sap though...the change is extremely welcome and overdue.
I really don't consider anything in subtlety to be worthless in pvp. Getting off your opener without being seen or attacked is huge. Those opening seconds are crucial even if they're only a small chunk of the fight. Just because people have more health doesn't mean there won't be the same 5 man assist train to bring down one of the other (weaker) 5 players. If you can bring down one enemy player in the opening 15 seconds but it costs you 20 talent points to pull it off, isn't that worth it? It's not like you're totally worthless with the other 41 talent points either.
Our role in pvp has always been totally different than what's expected of us in pve. Pvp has always been as much about keeping the other guy from doing what he wants to do as it is about you unloading on some poor slob. If a rogue can effectively knock 2 enemy players out through an extended stun/disorient cycle and improved sap, that rogue's probably more valuable than the one doing 10-15% more sustained dps. We're the only class that brings that level of enemy interruption to the table.
Also, Movement is still a huge component of any pvp fight and your white damage will always be a small component. The fact that you can totally negate someone's dodge/block/parry through positioning means there will always be a lot of jumping around in an arena fight.
Our role in pvp has always been totally different than what's expected of us in pve. Pvp has always been as much about keeping the other guy from doing what he wants to do as it is about you unloading on some poor slob. If a rogue can effectively knock 2 enemy players out through an extended stun/disorient cycle and improved sap, that rogue's probably more valuable than the one doing 10-15% more sustained dps. We're the only class that brings that level of enemy interruption to the table.
I would probably argue that a Paladin who can open with an unblockable, no-miss 5 point kidney shot, followed by another 6 second repentance would be right there on par with us in an arena battle. Especially when you consider he can make a caster immune to melee damage and heal as well. Sap < HoJ/repentence in the arena with the nerf to cc. The sad fact is a rogue that is out of stealth is quite literally the easiest class in the game to put down. Even with new imp sap it's not difficult to locate a rogue in the arena and you very rarely get a good opportunity to sap anyone on a smart team. Not to mention most other classes have caught up to our "burst damage", our only draw is that we can do long periods of sustained damage because of our energy mechanic which is pretty useless in a quick stun kill arena fight.
Our role in pvp has always been totally different than what's expected of us in pve. Pvp has always been as much about keeping the other guy from doing what he wants to do as it is about you unloading on some poor slob. If a rogue can effectively knock 2 enemy players out through an extended stun/disorient cycle and improved sap, that rogue's probably more valuable than the one doing 10-15% more sustained dps. We're the only class that brings that level of enemy interruption to the table.
I would probably argue that a Paladin who can open with an unblockable, no-miss 5 point kidney shot, followed by another 6 second repentance would be right there on par with us in an arena battle. Especially when you consider he can make a caster immune to melee damage and heal as well. Sap < HoJ/repentence in the arena with the nerf to cc. The sad fact is a rogue that is out of stealth is quite literally the easiest class in the game to put down. Even with new imp sap it's not difficult to locate a rogue in the arena and you very rarely get a good opportunity to sap anyone on a smart team. Not to mention most other classes have caught up to our "burst damage", our only draw is that we can do long periods of sustained damage because of our energy mechanic which is pretty useless in a quick stun kill arena fight.
At 70 ret is pretty laughable for burst damage compared to holy. I dueled a paladin yesterday morning with ~800 spell damage. He got a stun off on me, proceeded to use Avenging Wrath, then crit me with a Holy Shock for 2500 and a Judgement of Righteousness for 2600 instantly. Oh and while he was doing this his Seal of Righteousness was hitting me for 362 with a 1.8 speed sword(ouch) and Consecration was ticking for 307.
Honor PVP program is a separately leveling system that player is able to undertake quest and raid to gain the Exp. Experience Points to empower themselves and has nothing to do with Power Leveling system. Honor PVP program grant brand new experience to each profession in the game. The fantastic feature of every individual item generates a massive muscular defensive system and improved self-protective ability for the character. Meanwhile, with Honor PVP item the attach power of your profession will performance enormously ever compare to other items.
Honor PVP program is a separately leveling system that player is able to undertake quest and raid to gain the Exp. Experience Points to empower themselves and has nothing to do with Power Leveling system. Honor PVP program grant brand new experience to each profession in the game. The fantastic feature of every individual item generates a massive muscular defensive system and improved self-protective ability for the character. Meanwhile, with Honor PVP item the attach power of your profession will performance enormously ever compare to other items.
12/29/06, 4:53 AM
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