Kody

Hmm, I don't know about that. We had some very strong rogues even when most of us were in blues still learning MC. Barman Shanker was an incredible dagger thanks to the non-normalized Backstab. The current situation is a bit different, it's not really the lack of itemization(the itemization is there), it's more that certain caster classes have far greater synergy than rogues and the classes that buff rogue damage. Hell, I think Shaman are even better caster buffers now - Totem of Wrath, Wrath of Air Totem, and Mana Spring Totem are great, especially now that all of that stuff can be offered while the caster has BoS.

I tanked a few Tempest Keep runs on my paladin with two mages and a shaman in the group. I was flat out blown away by it, Heroism + Totem of Wrath + Wrath of Air is insane for casters.

 

syr

I don't have any screenshot's and I hope you'll not crucify me for a lack of evidence but when damage meters were basically first released and hunter's were still hammering away with the aimed shot spam and I vividly remember several hunter's trashing all other dps classes by several hundred thousand in the time it takes to get gehennas down, ofcourse, I speak from the EU perspective and Conquest had killed Ragnaros iirc a fair time before anyone on my server had even gotten to majordomo - plus I've generally always been a sword rogue and didn't use my shanker for much more than insane pvp ambush / backstab crit's. Also as I said, I don't have a beta account so perhaps the situation is more one sided that it appears since most of the information I have on the subject is generally just forum's conjecture.

I'm going to regret saying it because I know how rediculous most people will think it is, but in all of my time playing a rogue I wished for a useful group synergy effect, most of all I wanted a group aura style % threat reduction even if it required heavy speccing to get it. That way the viability of a rogue increases nigh on infinitely as classes who lack/lacked additional threat control such as warlocks and enhance shaman can pour out a substantially higher amount of damage while our own damage also already being considerable. BoS could be the changing point entirely for enhance / elemental Shaman but perhaps more may be required to really allow the DPS to fly.

 

◊ Kalman

A quick note: DW spec currently interacts slightly differently than expected with Mutilate on closed beta. The DWS +50% damage bonus is applied to the Mutilate bonus damage, giving the offhand a total bonus damage of 151.5 rather than 101.

 

sp00n

But not on the actual base damage of the weapon?

//edit
So the formula for offhand mutilate strikes is then
((DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7))+151.5)*0.5
instead of the suspected
((DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7))+101)*0.75?

That is more than a slight change, damage for Maexxna's Fang, 1600 AP and a poisoned target changes from 464 to 347.

Kind of meh... :(

 

Spades

That confuses me that it would function that way. Why wouldn't Mutilate look at the current (buffed) damage of the offhand before doing everything else?

"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long."
-Rorschach, Watchmen

 

rochan

Leatherworkers make blue and purple leg enchants for stamina and damage. The stamina ones are 30sta/10agi for the blue and 35sta/12agi for the purple, however the epic one requires primal nether which are very rare and best used elsewhere so you probably won't see that very often because the difference between the two enchants is so small.

Likewise the blue DPS leg enchants is 40ap/10 crit rating and the epic is 45ap/12 crit rating.

The mats for the blue ones aren't that bad, probably 100-300g depending on your server, however the damage ones are more expensive than the stamina ones.

Only one worthwhile head enchant so far, the revered with CE (go steamvaults!). The "tank/sta" head enchant is worthless because it doesn't have any sta and is just 17 defense/16 dodge rating or something like that. BTW, once you get the rep you can buy as many of the enchants as you want, they are BoP and cost 90 gold.

 

Un

Thanks Rochan! I didn't realize there was a head enchant from CE rep, I'll find it's name and info and add it to my list. Cheers.

 

◊ Kalman

Think you all misunderstood me.

The calculation we'd expect is:

((DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)))*0.5*1.5 + 101

The 1.5 representing DW Spec

The calculation being used is:

(((DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)))*0.5 + 101)*1.5

In other words, you're coming out better off than we'd have expected, but it's almost certainly a bug.

edit: Found the post I made on the beta boards with numbers.

Mutilating with dirks to fix the damage range to a very narrow window leaves me with an OH with a damage range of 56-58 (after OH reduction and DW spec applied, normalized). Dirks, 600 AP.

Predicted damage range for a OH hit using "proper" method: 157-159
Predicted damage range for a OH hit using "wrong" method: 207-209 (extra damage range due to uncertainty in how Mutilate's bonus would be rounded after the 1.5 multiplier)

I was consistently getting offhand Mutilate hits in the range of 198-205 on level 8-10 enemies (chosen to minimize armor; would use level 1s, but they need to have enough HP to survive the MH hit).

 

Ultramax

It seems more likely to me that the bug is the bonus damage not suffering an offhand penalty in the first place.

 

◊ Kalman

Could be, but given that it works that way on live, and has worked that way throughout test, I'd say it's the intended behavior.

Not to mention the tooltip being "instantly attacks with both weapons for an additional X damage with each weapon" implies that it's damage+X, not that base weapon damage is being modified by X.

 

sp00n

Are you sure that the offhand penalty doesn't include the bonus damage from mutilate?
I thought the formula would be similar to backstab and opportunity, where the bonus damage for opportunity is the last multiplier.
I.e. (((DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)))+101)*0.5*1.5

 

◊ Kalman

The 1.5 I'm tacking on the end isn't the Mutilate bonus, it's the DW Spec bonus. Assume the target isn't poisoned for those formulas.

And yes, I'm sure that my formulas are correct for how it works; offhand bonus damage is not affected by the OH penalty, and it is affected by DW spec.

 

Tiiki

Nice though it is, it's pretty obviously a bug as you say.

Clearly the DW extra 50% shouldn't affect something that wasn't affected by the DW penalty in the first place.

Having said that, it's a fixed and only small increase anyway.

 

Pastasaus

Im pretty sure my voice isnt all that interesting, simply because I have realy ot that mutch to add towards other tinktank rouges being lvl 70, but I felt sharing my general idea about how a 70 rogue is at 70(in beta wher I am atm, with the same gar as I had when I entered)

A couple of things I noticed, considering Im comming from a naxx farimg guild practicky all the questgear Ive gotten my hands on have been inferion (exept cloaks and trinkets) in every way. and It realy annoys me that ever signel blue item Ive been able to attain (Ive soloed most of the stuff so tak that into consideration) or get a glimpse at are purely feral in mind.

Come lvl 70 I have seen that My gear have been made laughable (I do have to say that my grind have been a hemo/combat potency (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=wZ...t00MRLxReo0hoo) thus not the best in the world) and my dps the same. I want to make note of my build is not at all pointed towards a raiding one, but simply because
a: I dont have a dagger and
b: I have a realy slow offhand.
most of what Ive experienced haveproven to me that this is the best solo build.

However..... What little Instance (5 man) runs Ive been able to muster up, practicly every single fight Ive met have shown that all the casters have had a SIGNIFICANT improvement toards my dps. I feel Im standing still on the same dps I had when farming Naxx (taken I was a combat build at that time (20/31)).

What I have experienced towards the end 70's (only 5 days now I guess) had make my pray that my efforts will be payed back when I get the right gear.

I have to say tho. I am verry scared about how the rogue class will attend TBC, and even tho I feel verry comfortable with my guild, I do have a verry strong feeling that unless somethin are done from blizzards side Im pretty mutch fucked.

For a constructive feedback, Im not quite sure what I can say. Im a hardcore hemo-lover with a forced Combat talent build on live (as in I do want to do the best for the guild) But if you want to ask me what can be fixed to make us viable I have verry limited answers.
For one the resilience SEEMS (I have no hard proof) to hit us quite hard, on the other side is the HP gain with no DPS gain (yeh give all 5k more health, nerf our dps and give a crappy Combat talent to boot) makes me believe we are pretty mutch fucked.

On the bright side howver, I actualy do hope Blizz rogue dev gets back from the toilet and see what the rest of the pack have done, and fix things (read daze witch no longer does anything for us, mace spec that just annoys raiders and in general a 41 talent that realy dont help raiders at all (who again allready knew they wrer fucked at PVP and didnt give a crap))

 

Freddie

Yarr. This thread is huge, so I'll ask a question that's quite likely already been answered and hope someone can point me towards the answer.

Mutilate build at 70, has anyone done the math on DW Spec vs Opportunity?

 

Corvin

 

Glass

Pastasaus's sentiment is being seen more and more on the beta boards. I have to admit just theorycrafting lvl 70 gear compared to other classes it really puts me in a sour mood. Especially when I see my friends in other classes outshining the rogue class with ease. People keep mentioning that we're supposed to magically get this cache of super-secret rogue gear that magically makes our class great raid dps again, but I don't know if I buy it. To that point, what is the purpose of talents when gear is where a dps class is made a dps class? Isn't that the old "raid or die" mentality that blizzard is trying so hard to shake in the expansion?

I'd just like to know how people on the beta are feeling about the class. It seems most that are in the know are really getting apathetic, there doesn't seem to be much of a light at the end of the tunnel. Some of the best players I know are at the point where they're just trying to ignore the fact that everyone is leaving them in the dust at 70.

 

Wodahs

We just killed KT, I have 8/9 bonescythe and really the cream of the crop in terms of other gear. I use a fang/pugio, have a drake fang talisman, kiss of the spider combo, band of unatural forces, etc. Only things left to further my char in naxx would be a shrowd of dominion, soulstring, bonescythe ring, and kingsfall. I like playing my rogue, and do a pretty good job at it. Im in beta, allthough I havent leveled to 70, due to an extreme lack of interest on my rogue.

With all that said. I am finding myself wanting to lvl my lock to 70 over my rogue. Thats how impressed with rogues and gear at lvl 70 I am.

 

◊ Kalman

I've killed KT. Fang/Pugio, 6/9 T3, etc, etc. I have nice gear.

I have a level 70 rogue on beta.

I'm seriously considering leveling my mage to 60 before the 16th and having him be my new main. I don't like where the class is, and I don't think I like where it's going.

 

Antiarc

Doh. Spineshatter for the lose. Yes, it grants some defense, which was boosting my parry, and I'm now swords. Oops.

That said, it still doesn't change my visible +hit rating. I haven't done any real parsing, but it would take a lot of data to distinguish whether or not that 0.2% was still there or not.

 

Nutron

im 6/9 T3 with msa/casti and dft/kots, exalted aq + master rings...

I've ran karazhan on beta (yes im lvl 70) and it left a realy realy bad taste in my mouth. I've never seen rogues in such a bad shape. I've been thinking about leveling my warrior to 60 asap this week.

 

Tiiki

I wish I had a warlock- my highest alt is a 45th level mage.

I prefer roguing though. My T2 rogue is only level 64 on the beta, and it was fun enough... but yes, I keep reading all this bad stuff.

Because I've worked long and hard on my rogue and don't really have time to try another class (e.g. I could level my mage, but what if it's no fun at 70?), I'm likely to just stick it out and hope Blizzard patch things up. I realise it took about 18 months for warlocks to be sorted... but who knows?

 

◊ Kalman

T3 (at least for rogues) isn't really replaced by anything superior before Karazhan, so it's an accurate comparison gear-wise. The replacements that do occur are generally DPS sidegrades with stamina upgrades.

 

syr

In the character screen you only see your +hit rating as gained from gear +hit rating to my understanding, for example you don't have precision added into it. I'm assuming this is because it works on a % basis rather than a rating basis, though the theory may not be correct. It show's your crit in % format, which is why you see the % change. I am ofcourse also assuming that it's all working as intended, and I don't *think* there's any parsed evidence to suggest otherwise.

Edit: Kalman I think he was being sarcastic ;)

 

Avair

I have already decided to reroll Shaman for sure. I half expect they will be the next broken 'Fury Warrior' type class. At worst, they can at least do reasonable DPS and heal, as opposed to just reasonable DPS.

Rogues are not going to recieve any raid role changes in TBC. They will still be standing behind mobs and pushing the Sinister Striking key a year from now, while being out DPS'd by shadow priests. The only new play dynamics they got were COS and Wound poison, both of which are PvP primarily.