Burning Crusade Rogue Abilities/Talents - Page 11

• Tiiki · 08/31/06, 10:04 AM

EDITED: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=fhebog0sVzZGcZVMjc0hk (you had remorseless attacks! - it's nice, but not THAT great with a dagger build. I've also just remembered how bad it is in PvP - you need the actual killing blow for it to proc. Very rare in battlegrounds).

Is the best version of that 31/8/22 build.

Murder > Imp Poisons, especially with the dagger swing rate. 2% dmg for 2 talent points is good value.

Full Serrated and full Elusiveness are also very good.

I would consider dropping Prep/Dirty Deeds/Serrated, some initiative and Imp Ambush (it's really not all that), for a Find Weakness based equivalent. Yes Prep is very good, but it's still a 10 minute timer. Compare to +19% damage during Kindey Shots. That's going to plain ruin people. Especially with Renatakis - still the best PvP trinket at level 70? Probably. Nothing scales better than 60 more energy :P

Having said all that, 30% on rupture and a full time 3-5% damage boost (Serrated) is very nice in all situations.

You also get fleet footed, which means you can skip the 8% run speed enchant (100% necessary for any rogue in PvP), and get the 5% root resist one, for 15% total root/snare resist. A nice bonus.

The 40pt Assassination PvPer: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=fhebovMsVzVZGcZVMI

◊ Kalman · 08/31/06, 3:00 PM

Mutilate was added to Lethality and Opportunity.

At this point, the question really becomes what the exact mechanics of the skill are - is the offhand damage mitigated by the offhand penalty, or is it full damage? If it's the former, backstab will still win (150% + static + 1 CP vs. 150% + 2CP, with backstab improved crit rate being more reliably present). If it's the latter, it becomes possible mutilate wins out: 150% + static + 1 CP vs 200% + 2 CP should be an interesting tradeoff.

And yes, Mutilate ought to be strictly superior to Backstab - it's a 41 point talent, after all.

◊ Kalman · 08/31/06, 3:22 PM

Originally Posted by Nezralix

Originally Posted by Kalman

And yes, Mutilate ought to be strictly superior to Backstab - it's a 41 point talent, after all.

It's about 2.5x better at generating CP's, does that not count?

No, it doesn't. Because if the bonus CP don't provide enough damage to outweigh backstab's static component, who gives a shit? It becomes a PvP-only skill, which is *boring*.

It's only about 60-65% better, anyway: 2 CP, 3 on a crit for 60 energy, vs. 1 CP, 2 on a crit, for 60 energy. Since both will have 55-65% crit rates, expected generation is:

@25% base, 2.55 vs. 1.55 for backstab, a boost of 65% in CP generation.
@35% base, 2.65 vs. 1.65 for backstab, a boost of 60% in CP generation.

1 CP is worth about 300 damage these days, give or take a bit.

Backstab 9's static damage bonus is worth: 225*1.2*(1+1.3*.3) = 375.3 damage.

A minor improvement in CP generation does not make a good 41 point talent, especially when that CP generation isn't really *useful*.

• Maestroquark · 08/31/06, 3:30 PM

We no longer have to guess, at least, Mutilate strictly says "Must be behind target" now.

Faytte · 08/31/06, 3:38 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Originally Posted by Nezralix

Originally Posted by Kalman

And yes, Mutilate ought to be strictly superior to Backstab - it's a 41 point talent, after all.

It's about 2.5x better at generating CP's, does that not count?

No, it doesn't. Because if the bonus CP don't provide enough damage to outweigh backstab's static component, who gives a shit? It becomes a PvP-only skill, which is *boring*.

It's only about 60-65% better, anyway: 2 CP, 3 on a crit for 60 energy, vs. 1 CP, 2 on a crit, for 60 energy. Since both will have 55-65% crit rates, expected generation is:

@25% base, 2.55 vs. 1.55 for backstab, a boost of 65% in CP generation.
@35% base, 2.65 vs. 1.65 for backstab, a boost of 60% in CP generation.

1 CP is worth about 300 damage these days, give or take a bit.

Backstab 9's static damage bonus is worth: 225*1.2*(1+1.3*.3) = 375.3 damage.

A minor improvement in CP generation does not make a good 41 point talent, especially when that CP generation isn't really *useful*.

They should probably consider giving Mutilate ranks (Ala say Mortal Strike) with some progressive added damage bonus, although at that point the ability is remarkably similar to backstab. Might be better off just making making mutilate a backstab enhancing talent (+1 cp on backstabs?).

◊ Kalman · 08/31/06, 3:47 PM

Originally Posted by Faytte

Originally Posted by Kalman

Originally Posted by Nezralix

It's about 2.5x better at generating CP's, does that not count?

No, it doesn't. Because if the bonus CP don't provide enough damage to outweigh backstab's static component, who gives a shit? It becomes a PvP-only skill, which is *boring*.

It's only about 60-65% better, anyway: 2 CP, 3 on a crit for 60 energy, vs. 1 CP, 2 on a crit, for 60 energy. Since both will have 55-65% crit rates, expected generation is:

@25% base, 2.55 vs. 1.55 for backstab, a boost of 65% in CP generation.
@35% base, 2.65 vs. 1.65 for backstab, a boost of 60% in CP generation.

1 CP is worth about 300 damage these days, give or take a bit.

Backstab 9's static damage bonus is worth: 225*1.2*(1+1.3*.3) = 375.3 damage.

A minor improvement in CP generation does not make a good 41 point talent, especially when that CP generation isn't really *useful*.

They should probably consider giving Mutilate ranks (Ala say Mortal Strike) with some progressive added damage bonus, although at that point the ability is remarkably similar to backstab. Might be better off just making making mutilate a backstab enhancing talent (+1 cp on backstabs?) rather than making it such a similar alternative.

Mutilate, as exists right now, if it's full offhand damage:

100% MH + 100% OH + 2x AP contribution

Backstab:

150% MH + 1.5x AP contribution + 225

Assuming identical MH/OH, is 50% OH + .5x AP contribution > 225? Is it enough greater to justify mutilate as a 41 point talent?

Assume raiding, BQP/BQP, 1700 buffed AP.

.5x AP contribution is 103 damage. 50% OH is 109 damage. At that point the attack itself is similar damage to BS, but with a bonus CP. The thing is, most people don't have equal MH/OH - the ideal Naxx combos (Kingsfall/HoD or KF/DS) would particularly exacerbate the problem, since the MH is so much better than the OH.

While the idea is nice, in practice it needs some scaling value to help preserve strict superiority to backstab. 150% of MH plus 50% of OH, possibly? That gives us 50% OH plus .5x AP contribution advantage still, but has the benefit of not losing as much vs. backstab when using non-equal MH/OH setups.

Faytte · 08/31/06, 3:55 PM

What if they changed mutilate from...

"Strikes with both weapons" (mh + oh)

to

"Strikes rapidly, delivering two instant strikes" (mh + mh)

Or would that be taking it to far in the opposite direction?

Shaine · 08/31/06, 4:13 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Mutilate was added to Lethality and Opportunity

My dream come true, i'm so happy^^

Me @ lvl70 : http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000

◊ Kalman · 08/31/06, 4:19 PM

Originally Posted by Faytte

What if they changed mutilate from...

"Strikes with both weapons" (mh + oh)

to

"Strikes rapidly, delivering two instant strikes" (mh + mh)

Or would that be taking it to far in the opposite direction?

200% MH + 2x AP vs. 150% MH + 1.5x AP + 225

50% AP + 50% MH > 225?

Assume Death's Sting, 1700 AP. Assume Mutilate will be speed-normalized.

1700/14*.5*1.7 = 103
50% MH is ~60 damage.

Inferior (I noticed on my BQP/BQP example, I noted the offhand as 109, I didn't apply the 50%, so it should really be ~55) to backstab by about 60 damage, but gets a bonus CP. Probably okay.

Really, either 2x MH or 150% MH + 50% OH works properly to provide a benefit vs. BS (as long as the target is poisoned). However, if it's 100% MH + 50% OH, which it probably is, it's not worth it.

Valen · 08/31/06, 4:26 PM

Well can count the 10% bonus from find weakness+extra chance to proc offhand poison too.

edit: btw. someone posted that backstab base modifier is changed to 175% in expansion. Was that confirmed?

◊ Kalman · 08/31/06, 4:34 PM

To roll FW with 4+ CP finishers, you need to generate ~3.4 CP every 10 seconds, or 2 per 6. BS-SF can roll FW very nearly as efficiently as Mut-SF can.

Extra chance to proc offhand poison isn't that big a deal - ~30 damage. Nice, to be sure, but not that great. Especially since many rogues won't necessarily be using a damage poison on the OH, since they'll be using OH poison on Shivs.

Ultramax · 08/31/06, 4:45 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

To roll FW with 4+ CP finishers, you need to generate ~3.4 CP every 10 seconds, or 2 per 6. BS-SF can roll FW very nearly as efficiently as Mut-SF can.

Err, how? Isn't bs+sf 1.(crit rate) CP and mutilate 2.(crit rate) cp?

◊ Kalman · 08/31/06, 4:54 PM

Originally Posted by Ultramax

Originally Posted by Kalman

To roll FW with 4+ CP finishers, you need to generate ~3.4 CP every 10 seconds, or 2 per 6. BS-SF can roll FW very nearly as efficiently as Mut-SF can.

Err, how? Isn't bs+sf 1.(crit rate) CP and mutilate 2.(crit rate) cp?

Yeah. So? FW lasts 10 seconds, so you only need to toss off a finisher every 10 seconds. If you're generating 1.6/6 with BS-SF, the pattern will be roughly 5 SnD, 2 Evis, 2 Evis (or whatever DD finisher of choice). Since it's SF-based, it isn't going to always be quite so neat, but you're basically shooting for a big SnD, then 2 small DD finishers in between.

With Mutilate, you're getting roughly 2.6/6, so the pattern is 5 SnD, 5 DD, 4 DD.

In both cases you roll FW exactly as efficiently; however, one converts more CP into direct damage. That was accounted for in my comparison - like I said, a CP is approximately 300 damage for current raidbuffed stats (with Evis 9 or Rupture, both work out around that figure depending on armor). You're simply changing finisher patterns appropriately; in both cases, near-100% FW uptime is possible.

Backstab base modifier change is *not* confirmed.

Faytte · 08/31/06, 5:01 PM

Maybe CP generation from Ruthlessness is beign asumed to bush BS/SF over 2 CP per 6 seconds?

Assuming a 70% crit rate (raid buffed) on bs your looking at
raw cp (seconds) cp with ruth*
1.7/2.3 cp -0 second
3.4/4.0 cp -6 seconds
5.1/5.7 cp -12 seconds

Overall your pretty close to 2 CP/6 seconds with ruth and seal fate with raid buffs, although it tappers off late in the cycle, meaning on the non SnD cycles youll probably want to break out at 6 second mark assuming you want to keep find weakness up continously.

Faytte · 08/31/06, 5:03 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Backstab base modifier change is *not* confirmed.

Seems to good to be true really.

Letania · 08/31/06, 5:05 PM

Can't sacrifice Dual-wield specialization for Opportunity, in my mind. Seems like one step forward and one step back. I liked mutilate's 'opportunity' talent being DW Spec, but it made only one real build.

Putting it on Lethality was good and warranted, though.

Murr · 08/31/06, 5:41 PM

With the change to Opp, I don't see how mutilate *wouldn't* be strictly superior to Backstab unless the 175% base dmg is legit. Here's a stab (lolpun) at some pseudomath:
Mutilate (5/5 opp): 130% MH + 130% OH (or not, who knows) + 2X AP Contribution
vs.
Backstab (5/5 opp): 180% MH + 1.5x AP Contrib + 262.

The problem is compounded if Mutilate allows a non dagger offhand. Imagine a Kingsfall/Gressil Mutilate spec rogue.

Now, if Backstab is 210% talented, or if Mutilate is 100%main 50% off, it's a little hazier.

edit: As a side note, the reason I'd tend to think Mutilate would use 100% offhand damage is the crit bonus - it's not going to "strike twice", it's more than likely going to use something like:
Dmg = (MH + OH + 2APContrib)*OpportunityMult

◊ Kalman · 08/31/06, 5:48 PM

Opportunitied Mutilate is only 120%, not 130%.

Backstab receives 1.8x AP contrib, but then, Mutilate would receive 2.4x.

Shaine · 08/31/06, 6:17 PM

I was backstabbing for a year now, i'd like to do something esle in BC for a time, maybe at the cost of dealing a bit less damage.

◊ Eej · 08/31/06, 6:36 PM

Just for fun, because I like playing with WoW numbers.

Let's say you have 1100 AP and Death's Sting in both hands (for simplicity's sake), with 5/5 Opportunity of course.

1100 / 14 * 1.7 = 133.6 damage from AP

Your "Weapon Damage" (as Blizzard lovingly calls it) for instants would be:

119.5 average + 133.6 damage from AP = 253.1 damage per swing

Now we're assuming it requires daggers in both hands, so here we go:

(253.1 * 1.80) + 262 = 717.6 = 718 base damage on Backstab (Rank 9)

2(253.1 * 1.20) = 607.4 = 607.4 base damage on Mutilate

Yeah, with daggers in the offhand, it's not going to keep up, this is also assuming 100% weapon damage on offhand. Now, if we assume we could put in a non-dagger in the offhand, here's what would happen:

Let's say we use, I dunno, The Castigator (don't like using KT weapons because hey, they haven't dropped yet :P).

1100 AP / 14 * 2.4 = 188.6 damage from AP

Weapon Damage of The Castigator:

170 average + 188.6 damage from AP = 358.6 damage per swing

So Mutilate becomes:

(253.1 * 1.20) + (358.6 * 1.20) = 303.7 + 430.3 = 734 base damage on Mutilate

If Weapon Damage in offhand is 50%, you'd do: 303.7 + 215.2 = 519 base damage on Mutilate

[EDIT - Mind you, I don't raid with my Rogue so I can't really say say how the increased CP generation would help your DPS, just doing a shot per shot comparison.]

◊ Kalman · 08/31/06, 6:41 PM

Realize though that your comparison is unbuffed (i.e. PvP) and in PvP, Mutilate has enough advantage over BS simply in terms of CP generation. A raiding rogue is going to be sitting at 1600+ AP (I sit around 850 unbuffed, and hit 1500-1600 buffed, so with 1100 unbuffed...), and Mutilate scales better with AP than Backstab under most of our assumptions.

◊ Eej · 08/31/06, 6:49 PM

True enough, but you know, this is all hinging on our assumptions right? It could be that Offhand penalty applies and you need daggers in both hands, that would be a pretty big blow. Let's use your 1600 AP for this, though.

1600 AP / 14 * 1.7 = 194.3

119.5 average + 194.3 damage from AP = 313.8 base damage

(313.8 * 1.80) + 262 = 826.8 = 827 base damage on Backstab (Rank 9)

1.5(313.8 * 1.20) = 564.8 = 567 base damage on Mutilate.

:<