Burning Crusade Rogue Abilities/Talents - Page 111

Nott · 01/09/07, 1:02 PM

Anyone else noticing that the Slice and Dice/BS change isn't in the notes? Can someone post when they log in if this is the case?

Wodahs · 01/09/07, 1:02 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Originally Posted by Wodahs

Dont forget blade twisting. They decide that the plus dmg is too much, and remove it, but leave a tier6 daze chance on hit proc talent. What exactly is that?

Not every talent is good for all players, that is why there are more than 41 points avaliable in a tree. The daze talent seems to be quite powerful in PvP and would help a warrior's heroic strikes do a bit more damage in PvE.

I saw the patch notes on Weapon skill talent being buffed, so that helps a bit on the dps front.

You are joking right? A tier 6! talent that for 2 points gives a 20% chance on hit proc daze helps a warrior who has a tier3 talent that for 1 point is an ae daze?'

Their is a major issue with weapon expertise, if it works like it says.

At the moment, in a combat dagger build, I have 36% crit. 196 Crit rating.
"The player will gain 0.1% to their critical strike rating per weapon skill against monsters above their level"
Does this mean I get 0.1% x 196 X 310? Or is it 0.1% x 196 X 10? Is my base crit which makes up more than half my crit counted at all? Either way, when I run the numbers I get rtarded results, so I gather blizz didnt give us the right formula.

What kind of convoluted minds does it take to make this up? lol

Cloak · 01/09/07, 1:07 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Originally Posted by Wodahs

Dont forget blade twisting. They decide that the plus dmg is too much, and remove it, but leave a tier6 daze chance on hit proc talent. What exactly is that?

Not every talent is good for all players, that is why there are more than 41 points avaliable in a tree. The daze talent seems to be quite powerful in PvP and would help a warrior's heroic strikes do a bit more damage in PvE.

I saw the patch notes on Weapon skill talent being buffed, so that helps a bit on the dps front.

Blade Twisting is really pathetic. It rarely procs and is in no way a superior snare to Crippling Poison II. They attempted for some sort of daze synergy going on, but they must have dropped it halfway through after realizing how half baked it was.

Tower · 01/09/07, 1:18 PM

Wasn't there supposed to be a +%physical damage component to dazed targets or am I crazy? When was that supposed to go in?

I had Blade twisting, and 20% on SS or BS was not useful in PvP or fast multitarget combat (for a 40energy SS that's a 20% chance every 4 seconds to proc and a 20% chance every 6s on BS...yeah). Like was said, as a snare component your instant strikes and melee will almost always be the first one to proc Crippling Poison(a superior snare) over the dazed effect. Your points are better off in vitality or imp kick, endurance etc etc.

◊ Kalman · 01/09/07, 1:29 PM

Wodahs, since no other talent in game provides a rating rather than a flat bonus, it's safe to assume WEx provides +skill.

Since +skill is *already* rating-based, there's no reason to believe that the talent provides crit rating.

I would assume it works as: per point of +skill over 300, a player gains 0.1% crit rate (*not* crit rating) added on top of their base crit.

And Blade Twisting isn't a 20% chance to proc; it's a 20% chance to proc on instants, which is horrible.

Glass · 01/09/07, 3:23 PM

Not quite sure I would call 1% crit rate on higher level mobs at 25 talent points a buff... But I guess technically it was. How sad is that? It's a good question, "who comes up with this stuff?". Because honestly I don't see the logic in these talents.

Give us a "sucker punch" ability that works out of stealth and in combat that expends 75 energy or something that "KO's" a target for 15 seconds, not useable on players, 30 second cooldown.

Lack of damage and real crowd control is a double whammy as far as class desirability goes. Even I wouldn't pick a rogue over a mage in a 5 man at the moment, and I'm more than a little biased.

Glass · 01/09/07, 3:36 PM

Edit: My hand of justice just proc'd an extra post.

pf · 01/09/07, 3:44 PM

How i have +skill worked into the spreadsheet is as follows:

+1skill gives:
+.04 hit
+.14 crit
-.04 dodge

Using this value, +skill rating is *slightly* better than +crit rating vs 3+ mobs. Comparing it to other situational stats like undead AP, and its a total slap in the face. This is the only version of +skill that I could interpret from their bad wording in the 2.0.1 notes that made +skill rating better than +crit rating. That being said, +agi and possible +ap are probably better use of item budget for a rogue which is against what Kalgan said, but I doubt he did that much math.

Nott · 01/09/07, 4:03 PM

The slice and dice change happened.

Liand · 01/09/07, 6:10 PM

Originally Posted by pf

How i have +skill worked into the spreadsheet is as follows:

+1skill gives:
+.04 hit
+.14 crit
-.04 dodge

Shouldn't it be:

+0.04% Hit
+0.14% Crit
-0.04% To be dodged
-0.04% To be parried
-0.04% To be blocked

?

Edit: Never mind. I forgot that your spreadsheet assumes you're attacking from behind, ignoring parrys and blocks.

Fellwraith · 01/09/07, 6:31 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

I know it might have been a while, but Sap already has a significant energy cost (60 energy); that fact alone would prevent an incombat out of stealth sap from being particularly overpowered.

Hell, give it a cast time for all I care to match up with poly, or make it so that if you have aggro from the target you can't sap them to prevent PvP abuse.

I guess I never fully understood why they put such heavy restrictions on sap, especially when you look at the other dps classes cc abilities (frost trap, sheep, banish, etc.)

The primary abuse I could see for using sap in PVE combat is to set up a backstab or mutilate, and gouge is generally superior for that. Unlike sheep you have to be in melee range and it has an effective set-up cost of 6 seconds (so you need to watch your timer and manage your energy accordingly).

I usually don't have 60 energy laying around to re-apply a sap after I start killing someone's friend in PVP, I'm usually much better off using that energy to finish off the first target I attacked. Besides, it's not like I can't blind that second target when the sap wears off today.

Between a warlock, druid, priest, and rogue you could CC pretty much anything (just add a tank or healer and you'd be set with a group like that). With a priest, warlock, and mage you can do the same exact things, but you'd need a healer/tank combo.

syr · 01/09/07, 7:15 PM

Originally Posted by Fellwraith

Originally Posted by Kalman

I know it might have been a while, but Sap already has a significant energy cost (60 energy); that fact alone would prevent an incombat out of stealth sap from being particularly overpowered.

Hell, give it a cast time for all I care to match up with poly, or make it so that if you have aggro from the target you can't sap them to prevent PvP abuse.

I guess I never fully understood why they put such heavy restrictions on sap, especially when you look at the other dps classes cc abilities (frost trap, sheep, banish, etc.)

The primary abuse I could see for using sap in PVE combat is to set up a backstab or mutilate, and gouge is generally superior for that. Unlike sheep you have to be in melee range and it has an effective set-up cost of 6 seconds (so you need to watch your timer and manage your energy accordingly).

The thing I can't really understand about that perspective anyway is that say they lowered sap to 40 energy, you're still talking in the region of 12s to get out 1 backstab / ambush (assuming no tea but thats like assuming no +haste for the mage), while mage's can spend 1.5s sheeping a target then 6s charging up a trinket'd pyro costing them 7.5's, perhaps it's merely the prospect of a very heavy stunlock they find to be imbalanced, in which case it would surely not be impossible to limit the move pve only. Perhaps it boil's down to it simply being more work than they consider it to be worth with it's potentially severe balance consequence's (especially when you acknowledge blind/gouge too)..

Tower · 01/09/07, 7:17 PM

I'm actually looking forward to PvPing this week with the new Wound Poison. I'm thinkign Crippling+Wound is going to my premiere setup for Battlegrounds. I was originally rocking Crip/Maex + DP5/Pugio for stacking poisons and getting that poison on the target right away for my first mut, but since Imp SnD is bye bye I have a couple points to move around to max out Imp Poisons n such. Mortal Strike rogues go!

Darien · 01/09/07, 7:21 PM

Rogues have a clear direction (control + DPS as said); it's just we aren't allowed to use half of it in PVE. I think with a few tweaks we would be right back where we need to be.

Problem 1: Stun Immunities in Raiding
Fix: More fights that deal with adds in some manner. Noth, Faerlina, Gothik, etc contain some manner of adds that are controllable. Fights where the boss goes through attack patterns and changes every once in a while. Becomes stun-vulnerable for 1-2 seconds while off-balance transitioning between patterns (spells to melee, whatever). Naturally, this could be tweaked so that it doesn't happen terribly often, and should definitely not make or break a fight. However, it would let rogues that pay attention give a small benefit to the raid by being there (especially so if specced for improved kidney shot). It could be interesting if there was no emote or visual indicator other than the boss switching actions. Then as long as it was clearly communicated that such things were potentially in place, rogues could experiment throwing out stuns at different parts of the fight to see what works during learning attempts. It would have the added benefit of throwing an element of fun and experimentation into learning attempts for our class instead of "oh let's wait outside the room while the tanks and healers learn the fight."

Problem 2: Uselessness of Openers
We all know how useless openers are in PVE (for the most part at least)... an interesting fix would be an ability that allows the rogue to restealth in combat in a 2 second window on a 30 second or 1 minute timer. Call it disengage or something. This could be used in tandem with the suggestions above to start a short stunlock on a boss when he's vulnerable or to get an ambush/garrote-silence off at an opportune moment. I realize this could have bad implications in pvp, so do not allow it to be used if the rogue is being targetted by a hostile he is in combat with.

Problem 3: Reliance on Cross-Class Buffs
Simply put, rogues get a huge (50%?) performance boost from cross-class buffs (battle shout, might, windfury, TSA, LotP to name a few) and because of this must be babied by the raid to do our job much moreso than any other class. My suggestion to this would be to slightly decrease the cross-class impact of said buffs (ie, full benefit to caster, 80% benefit to party) and add a "fighting forms" system, similar to hunter aspects, to the rogue class. Make it cost 70 energy to change forms on a 20-30 second cooldown. Each form would give the rogue a bonus to a stat, be it +100 AP, +3% crit, +5% parry, or +8% dodge, and also a small chance to proc debuffs on the target or buffs on the party depending on the form. Rogues become more self-sufficient, more useful, and less reliant on other classes. Win-win IMO.

And then there's the obvious worries about DPS I get from reading this forum and the beta forums. I do feel this could be easily fixed by tweaking armor values of bosses, since they apparently still have 20% reduction after full debuffs. But that is just hearsay for me since I cannot test it.

Well, I was going to post this in the class direction thread, but it got locked so here it goes. I'm not wasting the time I spent writing it :P It contains a couple ideas I brainstormed for PVE utility in our non-DPS class role (control) without severely impacting PVP.

Natrozim · 01/09/07, 7:45 PM

A way to possibly re-stealth in combat if not being targetted like in your example would be great in making rogues PvE fights more "fun" and possibly giving them more utility.

winstahn · 01/09/07, 8:20 PM

i always thought it'd be awesome to have a rogue 'class call' on a boss fight which removed the cooldown/reagent cost of all of our abilities, and have it be a crazy mobspawn zerg from different entrance points. and say, the mobs either despawn after a certain time, or all run to a certain point without attacking anything - but if they reach that point, the boss enrages (or gains a level ala mando) i'd feel pretty ninja sprinting around blinding/gouging/vanish-cheapshotting just to keep mobs busy.

</derail>

Abi · 01/10/07, 9:00 AM

Originally Posted by Nott

Anyone else noticing that the Slice and Dice/BS change isn't in the notes? Can someone post when they log in if this is the case?

It is, BS and SND have switched places, SND second tier combat, BS second tier ass.

Edit: Sorry, missed the already existing confirmation.

caskeper · 01/10/07, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Kir

Flourish seems pretty worthless. I can't see it being used often. If your doing a finisher on a mob that a rogue could actually tank, it's probably close to dead. On a raid mob, the rogue shouldn't be tanking. I guess it could be situationally useful, but seems pretty weak.

Well, I'd agree it seems rather useless in raids. However.. In PvP. Riposte ring a bell? Increase parry chance = more ripostes = more disarming & dps. Yes, riposte actually does increase your dps. 10 energycost and more dmg than your average sini & hemo. If, say a warrior, charges you.. Wouldn't you want to parry his attacks and riposte him, while building up combo points? Perfectly fine to use this with 1 combo point imo.

Sicks · 01/10/07, 12:20 PM

Anyone else find it a bit ironic that Warriors had complained about Druids being better tanks in TBC due to scaling then Bizzard actually nerfing that scaling? I don't know what I'll do come TBC. I really have little to no hope about the Rogue come the 16th and beyond. Strongly considering rerolling Shaman or Shadow Priest. I know that some Blizzard Reps read these forums and I just can't understand how they're happy with the class when they see that so many Raiding Rogues are intent on trashing the character they've played for over 2 years because of the situation we're in.

We have many glaring issues that I just don't see with other classes. Combat has almost no synergy, whereas other classes can put 51 or more points in a single tree and still remain decent (esp. Mages). If all of our trees were as well done as Assasination we'd have much fewer problems.

Some of our new abilities are rather lackluster. Especially Anesthetic Poison. 2 other 'new' abilities are just additions to old spells that quite frankly should have been there from the start. Really don't understand how the class is at all considered viable at this point.

Natasha · 01/10/07, 1:43 PM

There were a few rogues on my realm that did not get the free respec. They were both Mutilate rogues and are reporting that SnD is 3/3 but grayed out. I didnt confirm that they were getting 30 seconds of SnD from 5CP. Both said they logged really early in the day after the downtime.

Did anyone else experience this?

Lodfish · 01/10/07, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by Natasha

There were a few rogues on my realm that did not get the free respec. They were both Mutilate rogues and are reporting that SnD is 3/3 but grayed out. I didnt confirm that they were getting 30 seconds of SnD from 5CP. Both said they logged really early in the day after the downtime.

Did anyone else experience this?

I experienced a similar thing on the beta when the switch happened there. I am 11/40, it kept the points in Imp SnD for me, so I was technically 8/43, but i still had Relentless Strikes, which was nice.

Dakous · 01/11/07, 7:15 AM

Originally Posted by Natrozim

A way to possibly re-stealth in combat if not being targetted like in your example would be great in making rogues PvE fights more "fun" and possibly giving them more utility.

I wrote a whine that I deleted wherein I stumbled on the idea of rogues having a chance on hit to "vanish", sans aggro wipe, for three seconds. Think about that in PVP and PVE. Openers return to useful, because every so often you can re-ambush/garrote/sap (new adds only) (woo, utility), and being a rogue in group PVP is no longer an exercise in duck hunting.

Edit:

I did a look back 15 pages, but couldn't find a link to the exact current wisdom on talent builds. If anyone would be so kind as to point me, or explain how to use the search function to find specific pages in threads...

kharen · 01/11/07, 8:47 AM

I guess I never fully understood why they put such heavy restrictions on sap, especially when you look at the other dps classes cc abilities (frost trap, sheep, banish, etc.)

If I'm remembering correctly, at one point in beta sap could be reapplied in combat, but still had the stealth requirement (it might have not had the single-target restriction either, not sure). Which ended up resulting in rogues standing around in stealth constantly respapping things rather than fighting (which, frankly, sounds about as much fun as the suppression rooms), so they added the current heavy restrictions to it.

• Wodin · 01/11/07, 10:37 AM

Sap also used to last the entire duration no matter what, and the duration was the PvE one in PvP(~20s). Needless to say, griefing happened even in beta.

Glass · 01/11/07, 11:05 AM

As far as the 'warriors got druids nerfed in 2 weeks and rogues have been complaining for a year about warrior damage and seen nothing' argument goes...

I think the problem is with our class community. Let's face it.. 90% of the rogues in the game are mouthbreathers, content with any "pvpz buffz" they can get their hands on. For every one of us on EJ that does thier best to learn mechanics and be effective at raid damage there are 1,000 shadowsteppers that are thrilled they ambushed a mage wearing paper towels for 2700. Most rogues simply don't care about raid effectiveness, because if they did there would be alot more upset people. Unfortunately for us, we make up a small percentage of the class.

This class is in terrible shape as far as raid synergy and performance goes. We have no direction as a class and at the moment it looks like there are very few rats left on the deck of the ship.

Sad when your own worst enemy are the people in your class.