I honestly think the devs could go a long way toward perfecting the rogue if they make Stealth usable in combat as long as you haven't taken direct damage or received a single-target debuff in the past N seconds (best approximation I can come up with for the idea that no one is "paying attention to you," allowing a restealth).
This mechanic works already in PvP/Duels. After 6 seconds where you haven't been attacked, aren't swinging, etc, you drop out of combat. It gives you access to interesting options like Gouge/Restealth, Blind/Restealth, etc.
Any suggestion along these lines would probably also mean removing the 'combat pulse' which prevents stealthed rogues from saving repair bills, but mysteriously avoids putting feign deathed hunters into combat.
I'm sure there's some asshole at Blizzard who will never allow this because it would let rogues use their jumper cables, making druids obsolete since rogues can now rez mid encounter...
This mechanic works already in PvP/Duels. After 6 seconds where you haven't been attacked, aren't swinging, etc, you drop out of combat. It gives you access to interesting options like Gouge/Restealth, Blind/Restealth, etc.
Any suggestion along these lines would probably also mean removing the 'combat pulse' which prevents stealthed rogues from saving repair bills, but mysteriously avoids putting feign deathed hunters into combat.
Yeah, I know how it works in pvp. My suggestion is to alter the mechanic so that PVE restealthing is possible without removing you from combat, because we know Blizzard doesn't want people leaving combat during a fight unless they are hunters.
Edit: I'd also want to be able to attack during the "wait time" which is different from how things work in pvp. Restealthing for CC purposes would be a nice addition to raid utility, but giving up time on target for it is a really bad tradeoff when CC will still be a secondary role to DPS.
I did hear from some rogues that after a bit, rogues will start topping the charts again. Maybe it's stemming from hope in Blizzard? I personally can't find a possible reason why Blizzard would nerf the damage of the class most dependant on topping DPS charts, and also soaks up heals, being a frontline fighter.
On the other hand, PVP is looking really nice. Although it was ultra gay how ms and deadly doesn't stack anymore. Not neccesary at all, they need to change that shit back.
Rogue - Me, combat dagger fang/bqp 7/9 t3
Fire mage
Fire mage I think the mages were grouped, as Dalien has Atiesh
Fire mage
Combat swords rogue aqr/thundefury
Fire mage
Fire mage
Hunter
On that run, I picked up a kingsfall, and am now back to a 42/2/7 mut build to lvl, with imp sap and imp sin strike. I was happy to see an 800+ dps patch run, and was happy to see myself taking the top dps spot. But, this doesnt totally restore my faith in rogues at 70. I really do think that we will see some fixes for an underwheming lvl 70 skill, and quite underwhelming 41 point talents, aside from Mut. I just am worried its 3-4 months off for said fixes.
Ill make sure to run away from you next time i see you in the Battlegrounds.
What Combat Dagger Build did you use Wodahs? Did you use a standard 15/31/5. Or did you go down to CP and Suprise Attacks? Did you pick up WE?
Hm, I'm noticing a lot of folks picking up 2/2 Imp SS, personally I as long as I can maintain 4/9 Bonescythe I'm not really worried about the times I need to SS for mob control - opinions? I know its a ghetto replacement, but it's not half bad... I prefer grabbing even more poison talents and murder while not feeling stretched to get Imp Sap in my mutilate build. I'm looking for to hitting level 62 and dropping Imp Evis for Remorse and Vile Poisons with the addition of Envenom to my skills.
roq, that was traditional 15/31/5 cd spec, with weap expertise. tbh, its the only spec I feel very comfortable with, probably due to it being so easy. Ive run mut specs for a while, and while Im getting a bit more used to them, I still find them more of a challenge to maximize dps.
I am running a 42/2/7 mut spec for lvling. I have a misplaced servo arm, imp ss has its place at times, even with a dagger, but especially if you can swap out a slower weapon to use it. I took imp sap as I find it usefull, and at a total cost of 2 points, since Im getting opp anyways, it seems a nice/cheap talent.
Hm, I'm noticing a lot of folks picking up 2/2 Imp SS, personally I as long as I can maintain 4/9 Bonescythe I'm not really worried about the times I need to SS for mob control - opinions? I know its a ghetto replacement, but it's not half bad... I prefer grabbing even more poison talents and murder while not feeling stretched to get Imp Sap in my mutilate build. I'm looking for to hitting level 62 and dropping Imp Evis for Remorse and Vile Poisons with the addition of Envenom to my skills.
I usually pick it up for combat builds for solo grinding purposes, and also found a use for it in some situations on Thaddius and such. I'd also not bank on 4 piece Bonescythe too much - unless there were flaws in the spreadsheet there are level 70 TBC leather items worth dropping 4 piece Bonescythe for, though if you have pieces like Helm, Gloves, BP, and Legs, you'll probably be able to keep it around a good bit longer.
On the other hand, PVP is looking really nice. Although it was ultra gay how ms and deadly doesn't stack anymore. Not neccesary at all, they need to change that shit back.
This is indeed very...dumb, if you are mutilate specced. At least when I played mutilate (a month ago or so) I always had crippling und wound poison on my weapons when doing pvp (the latter for two reasons: its debuff and its difficulty to dispell due to building up several layers as well as not breaking disorients). This strategy has taken a pretty strong hit, especially if you are planning to do 5 man arena (a size where you almost certainly want to have a warrior in your team, if you want to go for a melee heavy setup).
I hit 70. I did 5 mans, and you know, they felt pretty decent; I offtanked, I used sap and blind and gouge and stuns and all my skills. I was feeling kind of hopeful.
Then I remembered I used to do all that shit in 5 mans at 60, and none of it carried through into large group content, not significantly.
Yeah, I did all that shit at 60 too, then I started raiding, learned about optimal DPS cycles, and the boredom began. Then I played a druid for a while, went on 5-mans, used cat form, bear form, offtanked, healed, did some damage. But when I brought my druid to MC on alt-night, I healbotted. My point is, the larger the group, the more everyone is forced to specialize. Not using the majority of your skills in a raid indicates a problem with the content, not your class, especially since the same problem plagues just about every class to some degree.
That's not to say there's no problems with the rogue class. I would like more raid-usable skills, whether they add damage or other utility. I would like to deal competitive damage. I would like the devs to recognize that melee range and positional requirements are much larger disadvantages than they currently seem to think. But wanting large group content to feel like small group content is much wider than just a rogue problem.
Hell, I don't care if it feels like small group content. I know it won't. But there's no way I can raid feeling as completely replaceable as rogues are at this point. Specialization is fine; I'm all for it. But the point of specialization is to be as effective as possible at your role. And if by specializing I'm *still* not effective enough, then what was the point of being there in the first place?
The point was that the things that make us more than "just DPS" in 5 mans don't carry through to larger group content, while the disadvantages are only intensified. The same does not hold true for other classes.
I see your point, I am sure everyone does. It kind of makes me even feel a bit selfish to say that I disagree. I feel that if my DPS is high and we have enough CC/healers/tanks I am doing no harm and am benefiting this raid.
Even if I could do marginally less DPS and heal when needed as a shaman, I would still prefer to play my rogue because that is what I enjoy.For me personally, I will play this rogue until I quit WoW and make a mage for PvP or when I just want a change of pace. I have over 150 days/played on my rogues and I still enjoy it =)
I also feel I play my rogue far better than I will play any other class. I have 150 days played, I have 2 or 3 other rogue alts even (different servers, one is lvl 60 as I originally played on the US servers till I started work), I do my best to research my class even though I am NOT a min-maxer. In 5 mans a good rogue can make a huge difference, I used to always sap, gouge on a pull (never had imp sap=) and the mages used to love the fact that they got those extra seconds to sheep and not get beat on. A well played rogue really does bring a LOT to the smaller instances, and we will be doing heroics for a LONG time. As far as raids go, I am happy if I can top the DPS meters in fights that I expect to (patchwerk type fights where I don't keep having to avoid AEs etc). If I can provide other useful utility, thats a big bonus too.
In the end, just do what you have fun doing. Its a game. When the fun stops, it becomes a job and you probably already have 1 of those =). And don't forget new heroics and heroic rewards will come out, new resist items we need to farm etc, we will do a lot of 5 mans =)
There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.
On the other hand, PVP is looking really nice. Although it was ultra gay how ms and deadly doesn't stack anymore. Not neccesary at all, they need to change that shit back.
This is indeed very...dumb, if you are mutilate specced. At least when I played mutilate (a month ago or so) I always had crippling und wound poison on my weapons when doing pvp (the latter for two reasons: its debuff and its difficulty to dispell due to building up several layers as well as not breaking disorients). This strategy has taken a pretty strong hit, especially if you are planning to do 5 man arena (a size where you almost certainly want to have a warrior in your team, if you want to go for a melee heavy setup).
Indeed, It was killer if you had vile poisons for instance. You'd have 75% healing debuffs on your target, in which case a half decent trail will absolutely devastate your target, even with healing back up.
My BC plan was MH wound, OH crippling as the new general set up. Ah well, let's just hope they're not faggots and they fix it.
PVE on the other hand, is just bs. Although I do believe they'll make our damage the shit again. That's all we have really.
Our damage really IS very very impressive (in bursts, with the right spec and with our CDs!).
Cheap shot then Kidney shot someone, then use coldblood and Mutilate. Its incredible damage.
And yes, I am 100% aware that it isn't very often you can do that, but if they buff our overall damage, it will make that sort of combo be a 4k damaging attack and people would whine SO bad =/.
Imagine once every day you can instantly assassinate a player. One hit, they die. People would complain to high heaven about it. Sure its one time a day, but its going to cause a ruckus =/.
So being that my mutilates in the above scenario are hitting clothies for close to 3k now, I do not see how they will be buffing our damage so much =/.
Of course having said that I did loot some cloth legs (level 61 legs) last night with 64 stamina, whats with all the caster loot in TBC! But if casters gear up in +sta gear, we will be needing to be hitting for 4k to have a chance =/.
I am still convinced they will fix rogues, I just am VERY unsure how they will do it =/.
There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.
roq, that was traditional 15/31/5 cd spec, with weap expertise. tbh, its the only spec I feel very comfortable with, probably due to it being so easy. Ive run mut specs for a while, and while Im getting a bit more used to them, I still find them more of a challenge to maximize dps.
I am running a 42/2/7 mut spec for lvling. I have a misplaced servo arm, imp ss has its place at times, even with a dagger, but especially if you can swap out a slower weapon to use it. I took imp sap as I find it usefull, and at a total cost of 2 points, since Im getting opp anyways, it seems a nice/cheap talent.
I'll back up Wodahs on not being nerfed into oblivion. Sure, if weapon skill worked the same I'd do more boss damage, but I spent the last few weeks pre-patch 11/40/0 with HWL/Iblis, and on our last Patch kill I did 806 DPS (#1), which is my highest ever without world buffs (horde, damn your blessings!). I have Maex/HoD in the bank, but with only 51 pts, the talents available to a sword build (relentless + CP is lots of energy) more than covered for the inferior weapons. Before and after the skill nerf, either combat or mutilate spec, I have been top (or nearly top) damage on both trash and single target bossfights. The worst I did on a fight I should do well on was patchwerk as mutilate coming in 5th-7th. Maybe all the mages in my guild are terrible, but I have a hard time believing it.
Also, people were talking about DW shaman DPS earlier in the thread, and I was pretty surprised at how much they do. We did an alt-MC run the last 2 Sundays, but since my highest alts are lvl 35 tradeskill bots, I took my rogue. One of our shman has been picking up good enhancement gear for a while, and he came in second on DPS. I think the I was over him by about 15-20% ish as combat swords. He did have a lot of aggro problems, but he didn't die *too* much since it was MC, he's got mail, and we had a lot of healers on the run. I was in his group and loving the unleashed rage BTW.
Yes. In our guild we established several rules:
1. Don't send them via Mail.
2. Don't zone with an opened lockbox
3. You won't gain a skillup from a box that has shut itself again. (though I cannot guarantee if this observation is true).
Also, people were talking about DW shaman DPS earlier in the thread, and I was pretty surprised at how much they do. We did an alt-MC run the last 2 Sundays, but since my highest alts are lvl 35 tradeskill bots, I took my rogue. One of our shman has been picking up good enhancement gear for a while, and he came in second on DPS. I think the I was over him by about 15-20% ish as combat swords. He did have a lot of aggro problems, but he didn't die *too* much since it was MC, he's got mail, and we had a lot of healers on the run. I was in his group and loving the unleashed rage BTW.
I would agree that UR has awesome potential in 25 man raids given the scaling function on it.
Unfortunately many of the shaman are so giddy about the fact that they can dps that they end up like the guy I had in one of my instance runs last night. He didn't heal, didn't drop appropriate totems ("goa is better for my dps", nevermind the tank and rogue in the party hurting for a wf totem), and frontloaded the hell out of his threat (stormstrike + earthshock before I even swung). He then proceeded to brag about how he was number 1 on the damage meter. The fact he was just barely underneath me on the damage taken side of things didn't register with him. Thankfully it was only Furnace, otherwise it could have gotten ugly. It was a night and day difference when I got a guildy enhancement shaman for the next run.
Trying to tank 5 mans with some of the newly minted mouth-breather enhancement shaman is frustrating to say the least. At least most rogues have gotten squished once or twice and know when to exercise caution or they have tools to manage those "oops" moments. From what I've seen so far, the good shaman know their limits but there's a lot of bad ones who don't (either from stupidity or lack of experience). Personally, I'd rather have a rogue dps'ing.
Yes. In our guild we established several rules:
1. Don't send them via Mail.
2. Don't zone with an opened lockbox
3. You won't gain a skillup from a box that has shut itself again. (though I cannot guarantee if this observation is true).
Are those rules from a "pro-rogue" perspective or a "I want what's inside" perspective?
Because the direct account from one our rogues said that the boxes he unlocked for a guildie turned up in that guy's mailbox still locked. And when a box in his inventory, which he'd unlocked earlier, locked itself again, he got another Lockpicking point for unlocking it. So point 3 is certainly contested.
If there is something like this occuring, it is conceivably the perfect way for people to powerlevel their lockpicking in the absence of Outlands based footlockers (which I've not seen, at least). One rogue lockpicks ~5 lockboxes, then mails them to a rogue buddy. When you ding, get them returned and lockpick them again. Get more lockboxes, rinse, repeat.
Did they add locked doors to make leveling up lockpicking even an issue?
Decent selection of locked chests in Ramparts/furnace so far. I haven't been having a problem. Between those and the lockboxes pick-pocketed off the pulls in same, I'm doing well enough to not worry. (308 lp at 2k XP into 62.) Haven't seen a door yet, though.
It's small, it's silly, but being the only one able to open a chest full of goodies really is kind of nice. And there's really nice stuff in there; gems (draenite, etc) and about 5g per locked chest, plus another BoE.
Yup, I have had no problems as every instance I have run has had at least 1 locked chest. Got a blue gem outta one last night and some stupidly high stamina bracers =).
Really enjoying myself at the moment. I ran blod furnace last night with 2 shamans, 2 hunters and a rogue, was really nice. We blasted through to the bosses and then proceeded to destroy them. One hunter was BM spec, so we had a decent tank for the run, and the DPs of the hunters and shamans and rogue was just silly =). The last boss gave us some trouble though as we had no decurser =/.
And back on topic: I am enjoying the fact that I am being quite useful due to sap! I even started to put points into imp sap (I was at 60: 43/3/5) as I figure I will be instancing a lot and 100% chance to stay stealthy is just tasty =). Its not as bleak as I was first led to believe, i.e. No one needs rogues, at least the first 2 instances have no problems with a rogue as the primary CCer.
There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.
Yes. In our guild we established several rules:
1. Don't send them via Mail.
2. Don't zone with an opened lockbox
3. You won't gain a skillup from a box that has shut itself again. (though I cannot guarantee if this observation is true).
Are those rules from a "pro-rogue" perspective or a "I want what's inside" perspective?
Because the direct account from one our rogues said that the boxes he unlocked for a guildie turned up in that guy's mailbox still locked. And when a box in his inventory, which he'd unlocked earlier, locked itself again, he got another Lockpicking point for unlocking it. So point 3 is certainly contested.
If there is something like this occuring, it is conceivably the perfect way for people to powerlevel their lockpicking in the absence of Outlands based footlockers (which I've not seen, at least). One rogue lockpicks ~5 lockboxes, then mails them to a rogue buddy. When you ding, get them returned and lockpick them again. Get more lockboxes, rinse, repeat.
Good question :D We just established the informa lrule that we open it via trade window in order to avoid the bug. At least I do. Most people will be in the Outlands anyway, so this is not a problem. Concerning lockpicking and leveling it up: use pickpocket and you will gain enough lockboxes to level it up. A guildie also mentioned some lockboxes in the Marshes, not sure though where they are supposed to be. Also the furnace and the ramparts each contain one guaranteed locked chest, that is orange at 304 at least. I don't think leveling lockpicking will be a problem if you don't get lazy or skip some content.
01/15/07, 5:33 PM
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