Surely Bloodfang procs more with mutilate? It's an 'equip' proc, so I figure that it gets twice as many yellow procs with Mutilate than with Backstab. Per energy, similar amounts to a Hemo build?
Envenom...what a trash ability. Even with mutilate and having improved poisons, it's just not any better than using either rupture or eviscerate. I thought as combat swords I could try and use it to take DP off of a mob so I could gouge or blind it (mainly because I like to multi-pull mobs while soloing) to bandage...but it seems that the chance to reapply DP after an envenom is incredibly high.
I'm going 41/20/0 for the initial push in progression at 70. The only situation I could see using envenom in is against a high AC boss with lots of hit points...even then I think rupture wins out considering how low my crit% will be at 70. Eitherway, this ability seems like nothing more than a new clicky doing something that you could have done with either eviscerate or rupture.
Envenom doesn't use CPs. You can use it and then Evis if you're nearing the kill and DP's ticks no longer matter. Even though though, I find its damage a bit wanting.
"When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it\'s full of urine." -HaemishM
You're Mutilate.
You have full talents in both Improved AND Vile Poisons.
You run dual deadly.
In this circumstance, you have both the CP generation and layer generation to take advantage of it, and the damage it does is not insignificant - when grinding, it's superior to Eviscerate damage due to armor-piercing, and when raiding it's about equal; it's a little bit more, but it also loses a bit of deadly (the stack builds back up quickly, but not *that* quickly).
It's not great, but I consider it to be at least as useful as rupture.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
You're Mutilate.
You have full talents in both Improved AND Vile Poisons.
You run dual deadly.
In this circumstance, you have both the CP generation and layer generation to take advantage of it, and the damage it does is not insignificant - when grinding, it's superior to Eviscerate damage due to armor-piercing, and when raiding it's about equal; it's a little bit more, but it also loses a bit of deadly (the stack builds back up quickly, but not *that* quickly).
It's not great, but I consider it to be at least as useful as rupture.
Exactly. Too many prerequisites for a circumstantial ability. I don't think it's worth the space on my hotbar.
The other issue with it is like you said, dual deadly, woudn't WF MH and DP OH come out better since you're not constantly knocking 5 stacks off? And instead of Envenom, if you just used rupture, wouldn't it come out the same or worse?
It's a bit aggravating that they gave us a new ability for a situation that we already had covered, and yet it does do anything really "better". Plus Rupture costs 25 energy whereas Envenom costs 25.
Personally in a Mutilate spec, I'd rather spend points in imp KS vs. Vile Poisons, for 5 mans, grinding, PvP, etc. etc. It may not be usable (probably 10 mans though) in a raid but I think as a 3 point investment it serves it's purpose for everything outside of raids.
So far I'm pretty pleased with my choice to go Combat Fist over Mutilate for leveling.
I am kind of intrigued by the idea of an 11/0/41 Shadowstep build for questing. There's been quite a few times that I've thought "damn, it sure would be nice to 'blink' up to that mob on the ledge" or "damn I wish I moved faster in stealth."
What are others thinking about their chosen leveling specs?
I personally switched from Combat fist to a 11/0/41 Shadowstep Hemo build for levelling, and have used it to reach 64 so hopefully I can provide a direct comparison.
The main thing I miss is the ability to kill mutliple mobs as quickly with BF, AR, Evasion cycles. However you do get to mobs a lot quicker with camo and shadowstep and if you, like myself, enjoy pickpocketing every single mob then it works out fairly well. Shadowstep feels a lot more "consistent" in PVE then in PVP and with the new Imp Sap nothing is more fun then Blink and Sap, especially in 5mans :D
I became a lot happier with this build for grinding once I hit 61 and was able to get Relentless Strikes.
I usually open with something along the lines of Shadowstep > Pickpocket > Prem > Garrotte > Rupture > etc
Btw I play with an average ping of 400 and I have no real issues with shadowstep placing me too far away from a moving mobs.
I intend on switching to mutilate at 70, however Im having a lot of fun getting there with shadowstep :D
My new favourite macro that's entirely replaced my Cheapshot keybind, now that you can auto-loot by default:
/cast Pick Pocket;
/stopcasting
/cast Cheap Shot
It's upped my money and strongbox aquisition by about 100x, seeing as I forgot to pickpocket 99% of the time before, and now it takes 0 time. I barely even see the loot window appear most of the time.
It also fails gracefully (i.e. still cheapshots with just one error message (which can probably be supressed anyway) on non-humanoid/PvP mobs).
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
It's a bit aggravating that they gave us a new ability for a situation that we already had covered, and yet it does do anything really "better". Plus Rupture costs 25 energy whereas Envenom costs 35.
Envenom used to only cost 25, and when it was only 25 it was really nice. Now it's not quite as nice because your energy doesn't fit together quite right and you have to wait for one more tick.
My new favourite macro that's entirely replaced my Cheapshot keybind, now that you can auto-loot by default:
/cast Pick Pocket;
/stopcasting
/cast Cheap Shot
It's upped my money and strongbox aquisition by about 100x, seeing as I forgot to pickpocket 99% of the time before, and now it takes 0 time. I barely even see the loot window appear most of the time.
It also fails gracefully (i.e. still cheapshots with just one error message (which can probably be supressed anyway) on non-humanoid/PvP mobs).
... Oo.
You just made me very happy. I'll just have to remember to play nicely with autoloot on bosses, though I'd assume in that case it would pop the warning dialog and not complete looting of a BoP. I recommend ErrorMonster to stifle the warning messages.
* Each rank of "Improved Fireball" now reduces your spell damage coefficient by 2%.
* Each rank of "Improved Frostbolt" now reduces your spell damage coefficient by 2%.
My new favourite macro that's entirely replaced my Cheapshot keybind, now that you can auto-loot by default:
Can you set the autoloot to work for Pick Pocket but not regular looting? I shift-click while soloing and click while in groups to prevent unwanted looting, but Shift+PickPocket doesn't work.
Before you start to drift, and your soul begins to scream.
I just wanted to tell you, that you're listening to a dream.
But I've not found it a problem so far in groups. It just brings up the need/greed window in groups and anything else you can always pass around anyway.
It's not perfect, but for me at least, especially whilst levelling to 70, it's definitely worth the trade off!
Im lvling with my gf, a priest (shadow spec) and mut just wasnt doing it for me. It may sound wierd, but with 8/9 t3, kingsfall/fang, I went 15/0/41 at 65. It gave me lethality, and shadowstep. WIth the +ap and +agi in sub. I have an unbuffed 1439 ap, 19.6% crit, and open for 2500 on mobs with ambush, then hit a 1800ish backstab, after gouge/stun. Its working better than any other spec Ive used, plus it gives me prep, so I can tank the elite mobs on kill quests with 2 evasions. I just lvl'd and got cloak of shadows, which is pretty cool as a trained skill.
You can do the same thing with Sap for those 5-man instance runs:
/cast Pick Pocket
/stopcasting
/cast Sap
Works great. I've also noticed that after combat starts, the Pick Pocket still happens when I do my Cheap Shot. Pulling in an extra 6-10 Silver per pull is pretty amazing, I must say.
You're Mutilate.
You have full talents in both Improved AND Vile Poisons.
You run dual deadly.
In this circumstance, you have both the CP generation and layer generation to take advantage of it, and the damage it does is not insignificant - when grinding, it's superior to Eviscerate damage due to armor-piercing, and when raiding it's about equal; it's a little bit more, but it also loses a bit of deadly (the stack builds back up quickly, but not *that* quickly).
It's not great, but I consider it to be at least as useful as rupture.
Hmm, I would say its better for SF daggers. Mutilate generates far too much CPs and for grinding the mob is never alive long enough for Evisc with the first 5CPs and then envenom when I get 5CPs and finally 5DP stacks.
I did break my BF +poison apply bonus though so I could keep my crit high.
Boss fights it could MAYBE be worth it to muti > Muti > Evisc > Muti > Muti > envenom (assuming one of the mutis crits =-). Even then without spending points into vile poisons, I don;t know if its worth it to envenom over rupture. Ill wait till I am 70 and look.
And to whoever earlier asked how I kept my crit high...well.. I used to have +17 hit. Now I am down to +9hit. I intend to keep my crit as high as possible (mutilate is very crit dependant I find, though not as bad as SS =), my AP as high as possible, and keeping a MINIMUM of 5% hit, because I will be SO damn sad to see a yellow ability whiff =/. I have had 5+ hit for so long now =/. So far I have been replacing anything that was an upgrade, but pretty soon I will be limited due to that +5 hit I want to maintain=/. I'll try get a current CT profile for you.
and FYI, dinged 63 with 27.83 crit, 9.xx hit, 1008AP. Muti spec, so no +AP talents from subt... but they are tempting me SO much. HWL fist with 1200ish AP at least, hemo.. hmmmmmmmmm.
There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.
Im lvling with my gf, a priest (shadow spec) and mut just wasnt doing it for me. It may sound wierd, but with 8/9 t3, kingsfall/fang, I went 15/0/41 at 65. It gave me lethality, and shadowstep. WIth the +ap and +agi in sub. I have an unbuffed 1439 ap, 19.6% crit, and open for 2500 on mobs with ambush, then hit a 1800ish backstab, after gouge/stun. Its working better than any other spec Ive used, plus it gives me prep, so I can tank the elite mobs on kill quests with 2 evasions. I just lvl'd and got cloak of shadows, which is pretty cool as a trained skill.
Shadowstep is definately a great grinding spec if you are duoing. I was tempted to get this as I level with my gf a lot also, she plays a hunter. I figured she specs MM and gets Aimedshot, I will shadowstep and at the start of the fight we just demolish the mobs. Problem was my stealth timer though.
The other thing is the CP generation. Its just insane. And as someone said earlier, it Is pretty rare to crit a mutilate for 2.8k, its NOT rare to crit for 2k+. With my gf its ideal for me, she is now in the habit of using rank1 serpent sting as one of her early shots =) so I am never waiting for a poison tick.
For bosses we have her pet to tank, and with the CP generation of mutilate I can easily throw in 1 or 2 5 pt KS's in the fight.
I guess it really just depends on your play style =) also what you just enjoy. I really am tempted to go subt just to see my AP hit 1200ish =).
But looking at your stats, 19% crit would really hurt mutilate. Its very crit dependant, you want to have around 25% really at least. I guess mob grinding it doesnt matter. more front loaded damage = faster grinding. For instances you would probably enjoy muti though, just swap out some gear and swap in the +crit gear =)
There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.
Mutilate needs a good crit rate indeed. I specced into it on the weekend and did one level on that spec but today I will return to combat swords. Combat potency and a swift offhand was and is really amazing and you don't get hit by a truck if your gouge and kidney fail to land (especially since Surprise Attacks makes your finishers much more reliable). Getting CloS on the next level up will seal the deal, I guess.
You can do the same thing with Sap for those 5-man instance runs:
/cast Pick Pocket
/stopcasting
/cast Sap
Works great. I've also noticed that after combat starts, the Pick Pocket still happens when I do my Cheap Shot. Pulling in an extra 6-10 Silver per pull is pretty amazing, I must say.
Great call.
The silver is a great bonus, as are the extra healing pots (and gnome effigies stack and are worth about 6s each), not to mention I have more Blind Powder than I know what to do with.
And yes, pick pocketing in combat went in a couple of patches ago. As long as you're in stealth, you can always pick pocket.
Awesome - I feel much more thief-y now, like I'm always lifting wallets at the same time as conking them on the head :D
I would be afraid to make that a Sap macro, as sometimes when I'm applying Sap, having a resisted pick pocket could be deadly.
Will an already Sapped target break sap with a resisted pick pocket? If not, just swap Sap and Pick Pocket in the macro (assuming Sap doesn't trigger Pick Pocket's cooldown here).
Before you start to drift, and your soul begins to scream.
I just wanted to tell you, that you're listening to a dream.
I did some sapping in Setthek Halls last night, and after I sapped a mob I tried to pickpocket it. It resisted and the rest of the pack started mauling me... So it might indeed be a bit tricky to use it in a macro with Sap.
i've given up on trying to maintain a high crit chance. It's not essential to my build anyways. I'm level 64, run about 1460 AP fully enchanted, %25 crit and about 90-100 hit chance. All those stats vary as leveling and upgrades come quickly. I figure at level 70 i should be able to hit about 1600 AP unbuffed. At that point, with my Hemo build, i could care less if i ever crit another attack. Having AP that high is like the buff from Earthstrike being permanent. Servo Arm hits like a truck with these numbers.
The build im running to level will be the build i raid with. Standard 11/0/40 base with 10 floating points at 70. It's hard to optimize the other 10 because Lethality is not that special for this build and Cold Blood is good but not huge. I might go 10 in Combat for Precision. Something like 11/10/40. Or just the standard 21/0/40 with Cold Blood.
I figure it wont be too long before, after raiding comes, i'll be around 1700 AP unbuffed with something equivalent to the Dragonstrike Mace main hand. 335ish top end and 2.8 delay i believe it is (sorry not Thottbot at work so i cant confirm). Hemo is going to be insane at those levels. I really hope they never normalize it. It's the only thing that keeps this build going so good.
For soloing i get quicker kills then i did when i specced back into Combat. I guess my high AP, low crit gear is tailor picked for this build so there's no going back. Plus, combo points are so huge for leveling that i could never go back to the slow combo combat grind. Couple that with all the toys that Sub has, there is nothing i cant kill with this spec that you can with another spec so im happy with it.
If anyone has questions about this build or how to play it or what gear you should go for just ask. I've tried to somewhat become an expert at Hemo by playing it so long and tailoring everything around it.
01/20/07, 12:18 AM
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