You might also want to take a look at 11/20/30. You lose a few pvp talents and an agi scaler, but you gain a *lot* of offhand dps which could be a bigger deal as weapons scale up. I think Kalman originally posted it about 10 pages back.

11/20/30… for boss fights it will be more DPS, currently for 5 mans, soloing and PVP i get more out of the full 40 in Sub. Not only do you loose the %15 agi (which contrary to popular belief, there is tons of agi on TBC gear, not just AP) you loose Master of Sub (%10 DPS increase for 6 seconds after stealth) and Premed.

Currently while leveling and PVPing fights generally go like this assuming premed is up; Cheap shot, 5 point Evis, Ghostly, Hemo, Gouge, Kidney shot, spank a few times. Mob dead within about 10 seconds of combat and me taking next to no damage. The amount of offhand DPS i loose in that time is nothing compared to the AP, Crit, Dodge, %10 DPS bonus that i gain. In 5 man instances fights last just as long. Boss fights are short, not in the same vain of MC and BWL of old. Lots if in and out or quick burn it down DPS. Dual Wield is huge and on long boss fights its even better, but it remains to be seen how much better it will be with TBC boss encounters

The current trend is for creative quick encounters over the old 20 min tank and spank fights. Lots of movement where rogues will end up using yellow damage a lot more than white. I think the days of poping a 5 points S&D and going to sleep is over. In a perfect encounter you could argue that 11/20/30 would be a better choice, but current encounters tend towards more chaotic battles and less about a perfect scenario.

with 500 agi being easy to get and dual Mongoose enchants, Sinister Calling is currently vastly underrated. Not to mention that them fixing the out of combat time and out of combat while sapping, this makes Master of Sub a huge 3 point talent that can be used quite frequently.

Kalman can go 11/20/30, i'll stick with my 40 in Sub. His end goals as a rogue differ with mine as do our specs.

I have a regular Sap keybind as well (Shift + Left on my N52's directional pad), for those times where it's more important to land the Sap than make a bit of extra cash. Having the option to do a "safe" Sap is definitely a good idea, but the vast majority of the time this macro will be a good one to use by default.

I went 11/0/40 at level 60 (post expansion), and really liked it... decided to pick up Shadowstep at 61, and have REALLY enjoyed it. The only thing is that because of Shadowstep, I'm using Garrote instead of Cheap Shot as an opener half the time, and of course, Garrote would be better with Opportunity, so I feel like I'm not totally maximizing my build. If I picked up Opportunity, I'd almost want to pick up imp Backstab and imp ambush and really go that way with it, but I'm really REALLY liking the sick amount of combo points I generate with Initiative/Setup/Premed/Hemo.

Avatar checking.

Also, is anyone playing a rogue anymore? Heh. It seems like all the "iconic" rogues have left for greener pastures

Still rogue, but mainly because I'm lazy and there's so much investment in this char that I don't have the time to level another up and get to the same spot.

My rogue will be my main until Blizzard announces its new class for the next expansion:

Warrogueist

A class that can tank like a warrior, heal like a priest and dps like a rogue. Oh, and they can stealth! And why not let them have some long range nukes just "for when ya gotta!"


Hang on.....wait just a minute there............




Ok, on a serious side note I am VERY interested in trying a hemo build. I have HWL fist, 1100AP unbuffed atm 28%crit and 87 +hit. I am currently mutilate spec but the poison reliance is starting to annoy me =). Also last night I was in a group with a BM hunter who utterly crushed me on the DPS meters, it was depressing =/. I am curious if I will miss the CP generation I get with mutilate. Also, how do you kill mobs when you DON'T have premed? CS > Hemo > Hemo > KS > Hemo > Hemo > Hemo > Ghostly > /Dance > Hemo > /sleep > Eviscerate ? I.e. is it a much longer fight? =)

I was JUST keeping up with him on the DPS meters.

Now, his pet did an equal amount of damage to me and him! He was using SWstats, I had damage meters. We reset both of the damage meters and after 30minutes of Slave Pens we both posted our damage. The numbers were something like:

My post:
Me 320,000
Him 310,000 (no pet included)

His:
Him 570,000 (pet included)
Me 295,000

Now, I know mutilate is not a PvE spec, but I DO play my class well. I have GREAT mutilate stats right now and I was DESTROYED by this hunter!

Couple things to note: He is an alchemist. I had a +50 AP potion for some of that time, he had at LEAST that potion for the whole time. He is just as well geared as I am, and is one of the top 3 hunters I have ever played with. Also note I have Imp KS. Now I could be selfish and only trigger it when I am full energy, but I never do. I always run with a high DPS group so as soon as I get 4-5 CPs I use imp KS, even if it lowers my energy to 0.

But taking my damage from my meter, and his from his is that normal? for a hunter to crush me by 250k damage? I was always the top DPS in my guild on rogue friendly fights, and still top on the not so friendly fights (i.e. twins.. us poor rogues run a marathon while those slacky hunters just turn around =).

Anyone know if maybe SWStats is a lil bugged? =)

Well, according to the latest spreadsheet for my gear tri-spec hemo beats everything else. Admittedly my muti build would use HWL/FoF rather than any decent off hand - but I don't like dagger builds for grinding anyway.

I was surprised at just how much raw dps it puts out over a combat build (currently HWL/Ripper - and I know ripper's a bad off, but iblis didn't drop for me). Even with Iblis the tri spec is considerably better.

Usual mob string is Cheap Shot - Hemo - Hemo - KS - Hemo - Hemo - Hemo - Evic by which point they're dead. The only time I break from that is when Bladefists is up when it's Cheap Shot - Bladefists - Hemo - Hemo - Evic. If I get lucky that'll kill them if not Hemo - KS and they're dead before KS wears off. Bladefists triggers every third mob and about every ten mobs I stop to bandage.

It's not so good versus elites or multiple targets. Any time you need burst damage it's just not there, your doing consistently high damage but have very few ways to increase it via talents. On the other hand, combo points are pretty free and easy. Evasion is on reduced cooldown if you like and Prep, that means your survivability is high plus the dodges have a fair chance of gaining you a cp. Versus fast hitting mobs I've often got to 5 cp within 2 hemos.

I definately think hemo is the way to go in TBC.
From what I've seen crit itemisation isn't as good as it used to be whilst high APs really abound. Due to hemo still being unormalised that's a gift. The only downside is you'll not see a weapon upgrade mainhand from HWL/Servo/THC until 70 raiding.

I've not lost out to equal geared hunters yet - though they're chasing my heals. So far I've only lost out to mages and an elemental shaman of all things. But, I've not really grouped with many good fury warriors yet. I'm outdamaging our former top rogue who's combat daggers with HWL/Pugio so I'm happy.

The spec I use is 11/20/30
Highlights are the obvious last points - Relentless from Assasination, DW spec from Combat and Deadliness from Subt. The first two are 'worth' around 50dps, and the last aroud 25. There's no wasted points in Assas and not many in Combat, but you have to spend a fair amount of junk points in Subt unless you intend to utilise weapon swapping with a Dagger off for Ambush (seems a lot of faff to me).

Setup/Initiative is nice for extra combo points but hardly game breaking. Imp Sap however is very nice now it's 100%, one of the best CC abilities in TBC. Fastest furnace run I did was Shaman/Rogue/Rogue/Mage/Warlock when both rogues had imp sap.

Anyway - my spec is http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=i0eboZhfV0bVZxrfohGoox

It's cyclical; hemo behaved very well with the right blues because you had decent AP, mediocre crit/hit, and CP-based damage was high compared to gear (white/instant) damage. Then as gear scaled up and crit/hit specifically scaled up, hemo lost out since the CP advantage failed; as AP then began to scale further while crit/hit was maintained, hemo came back into its own.

We're back at the start of the cycle. AP, but mediocre crit/hit, and CP-based damage is good right now. Over time combat will win out again, and if gear development continues long enough before the next uncapping, other builds will come back into their own. Did you think it was accidental that you'd see 20% crit at 70 in blues (or T3, which is roughly equivalent to 70 blues anyway)?

edit: I enjoy my mage a lot. I enjoy stupid mage tricks like Ice Lance solo kiting the Eredar overseer from the Nagrand camp from 50% to 0, I enjoy CC, I enjoy AEing (I even enjoy dying on AE pulls, it makes me feel like a real mage!). And hey, I understand rogue mechanics entirely too well; now I have a whole new class to spreadsheet!

^ amen. Couldnt be happier about rerolling blood elf paladin myself. Completely different playstyle, I feel like an invulnerable pestering machine of doom with a fiery 2hander at lvl 42. Its great :D

Will definately play around with this specc if/when I hit 70. Though Blade Flurry is worth alot more than 2% ap in my eyes.

Hemo is pretty amazing and tons of fun when leveling from 60-70. You start with the improved stealth talents in MoD/Camo, Imp Sap for multiple pulls and instance CC. Ignoring all cooldowns, it's still a really good spec to drop mobs while questing. I'll generally CS>Hemo>Hemo>Evis but I've also noted that CS>Hemo>Evis when you have Initiative proc is just as good due to Evis falling under Master of Shadows at that rate.

On soft/caster types you'll use CS/Hemo/Hemo/Evis/Hemo which should kill them. On warrior targets generally CS/Hemo/Hemo/KS/Hemo through to Evis will be better. I use Bladefist/Premed on seperate mobs to spread out the benefit of your cooldowns.

I started at 60 with 11/0/40 and the first talent point went into Shadowstep, after that maxed out Lethality. Shadowstep is obviously gimmicky, and doesn't hold alot of use, but it does have some. Blinking to mobs on ledges, catching mobs to tag before someone else running to them can do so, easy positioning to the back of a pack of mobs to get the sap on the one you want, and oddly being able to Shadowstep/Sap packs of mobs that have stealth detection. The last one depends on server lag sometimes, and you of course have the entire pack on you after that, but I have a 90% success rate on sapping mobs that have stealth detectors with them.

Let's not forget as well, Shadowstep, and Subtlety tree in general makes you feel like a ninja!

I'm not so sure on that Kalman.
I agree with what you're saying in that over time it switched from AP/CP to crit and has now swung back. However back in the initial levelling days to 60 Hemo still wasn't as good as combat or even Seal Fate for grinding. It takes a certain amount of AP for Hemo to start standing its ground and back in the T1 pre-Deadliness days that just wasn't there.

I also question whether it is truly cyclical. I'm not so certain Blizzard want to go down the high crit value road again. Increased Sta budget and the Resilience talent say to me Blizzard are more interested in flattening combat out than making it any more spiky.

Comparing Nightslayer to Netherblade, for the same pieces Nightslayer has a flat 8.34% bonus to crit, while Netherblade has 4.60% but with 6 sockets (1 dedicated crit socket, 5 other). I doubt you'll find a gem combination for 3.75% crit.
The same comparison hold true for Bloodfang -> Deathmantle.

That's the kind of itemisation that suggests Blizzard want lower crit values, certainly for rogues, and the lower crit/higher AP environemtn is going to stay this time.

Once you hit 70, I suspect so. On the way up though the best route up is 11/x/30 as there's no way to take BF and Hemo/Prep without losing Relentless at early levels - and Relentless is way better than BF.

Even at 70, BF is only really of use if you habitually pull two mobs. On a single target, sustained dps fight BF doesn't actually contribute much compared to 2% AP. At 70, if we're back in the single target raid mode - Deadliness will still win out over BF.

I have been hemo for 1hour. I miss the big numbers.

Still need to figure out if it is quicker than mutilate grinding though.

I also miss the CPs from mutilate, it definately feels faster than hemo tbh. (and mathmatically its faster too =).

One thing I like: The hemo sound. Its so... so... MEATY.

Ok.... Pros and cons.


Pro:
Don't mind so much not being in stealth for the start of the fight
Self buff dodge to 90%+
Prep
CS > Hemo > Hemo > Evis > Ghostly > Hemo > Hemo > Evis has killed everything so far, I took very little damage.
Better CP control (mutilate wastes CPS)
MEATY sound when I hit stuff! =)
Not position or poison dependant

Cons:
Lower numbers over mutilate =)
No coldblood
Much less bursty damage.


Im going to stick with hemo for now. Its something new, and after 2 years of waving daggers about, I am curious how this will go =)

This is something I have been thinking about for a little while, it really looks like everyones crit will be lower.
I haven't spent the time to compare all the different pieces of gear like you have but just by browsing and a little mental calculation it seems this way.

In a raid situation with careful party composition and off-specs I expect it will be at current levels if not a bit higher.
Of course this will bring up the mess which is who gets to be the off-spec, the primary class jealousy and if the raid will have enough healing, tanking and DPS when needed.

Looks good although as others said the resists on Pick Pocket before Sap sounds a little risky in a group, given that you can do it after the Sap without the risk in a group sounds better.

For those of you concerned about boss looting with auto-loot turned on.
Next to the option to turn auto-loot on is a choice for which key to hold while looting to do it without auto-looting, default is Shift.
It just means you have to train your brain to reverse what its been doing for a long time ;)

You really should read the forum rules before posting on the forum, you have been doing this for a while and no one has ridiculed you yet, best you stop to avoid that :P

Looking at T4 and T5 I would agree that there is not a large amount of +crit, but given the fact that we have so many other slots, rings, trinkets, necklace and also now gems, we can stack up a LOT of +crit from those slots. I am fairly sure that crit will still get to the levels it was at 60 and that AP will also remain high. However, to stack crit you most likely will be dropping some +hit, so its a PvP/PvE tradeoff.

Even with 100% crit I will not be two shotting ANYONE at lvl 70 who is in blues. That was their solution to the +crit issue. Resiliance will not make a huge difference unless someone forgoes every socket etc and gets the PvP set to just stack resiliance.

So which shoulder enchant are you going to get, Scryers or Aldor? (Assuming you have no profession that will bias you in any way due to other factors)

According to pf's Spreadsheet the Aldor one is slightly better.

However when the gear gets better and you factor in raid buffs, the Scryer one starts to catch up, and with current top level gear and full non-consumeable raid buffs it is almost equal.

So might Scryer actually be the better long term choice?

I chose Scryers. Simply because AP is much easier to max than crit judging from the gear already known. Furthermore if you are interested in doing some arena games I feel that crit will serve you better there than AP (because of the need for some burst damage). Of course the differences are minimal.

Back to the Sap/Pick Pocket:

I tested it out some last night, and noticed Pick Pocket is completely off the global cooldown. So I tried the opposite, like I said:
I had one case where the pick pocket was resisted. The Sap was not broken, but the sapped target entered combat and my stealth was broken. So this is definitely superior to the other order, as this way in the worst case scenario your Sap still lands (assuming enough +hit).

Aldor.
Being a JC/Ench my tradeskills are boned whichever way I go. As Hemo I have a natural preference for AP anyway.

Plus, the 'City of Light' quest was bugged for me so I had an invisible, silent guardian. By the time got to the Scryer's bit I was ready to tear my hair out, forever tainting them for me.

Good call, will have to give this a try. I think I've only had one resist with the other order, and that was while I was out doing some solo questing. Having a reasonably safe way to do this in a group would be ideal, of course. Sounds like this is the winner.