Im not totally sure this is the correct post for this but it seems the most likely out of the options and i dont believe this deserves a seperate thread. Currently on the EU R&D forums a post is up about the value of +weapon skill.

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....sid=1&pageNo=1

Now pretty much every player in the thread and across the various boards was convinced of the various values that you gained from it stat wise, however a CM on the boards Czerax has put some numbers up for +weapon skill that don't correspond to the numbers every one else seems to be using. Czerax states that +4 weapon skill is

"Let's say you increase your weapon skill by 4.

Against a mob 3 levels higher than you, you get: 0.8% lower chance to miss, 0,4% lower chance to get dodged, 2,4% to be parried, and a 0,8% higher chance to crit. That means a 4,8% net increase. "

While the general concencus taken from wowwiki and some i ninjad off these boards is different.



Is there a chance everyone else is wrong and weve missed something or is he wrong in his calculations of what its actual net gain and worth is in terms of stats? I'd like to point out with this that im perfectly willing to belive that ive missed something in my understanding of how +weapon skill works, it just seems as though Czerax's info doesnt match up to any ive seen however.

His numbers are vastly incoherent in itself. Why should we get twice the miss reduce compared to dodge reduce from weapon skill, why 6 times less the chance to parry then to get an attack dodged?!

sorry to say, but from my PoV Czerax fubar'd on +skill understanding unless he knows the formular and doest say so

To be honest that was my thought but im just not confident enough in my grasp of the numbers or the way they work out to be 100% certain.

Yeah, we don't need a CP nerf, just the swords equivalent of a Searing Sunblade for now. Really, anything to fill the gap between Latro's (ilvl 115 blue) and Blazefury (ilvl 130 epic) would be nice.

Neither do I, but how about a fix?

Why can't CP just be 8 procs-per-minute instead of the fixed 20%? Meaning an 1,5 speed offhand would proc it as often as it does now, and 1,6 speed offhands would proc a little more often. Since Blizzard wants CP to favour faster weapons maybe cap it at 1,8 speed, such that weapons slower than 1,8 have the same proc chance as a 1,8 speed weapon.

You realize there is not much of a gap between Latro's and Blazefury right now? Maybe 5 DPS, and the better your gear/buffs get, the smaller the gap becomes. So an 80 DPS 1,4 speed Sword would already be better than Blazefury (assuming decent stats).

Well....
Back in the day where was the upgrade from Shanker until you hit Perds? It got nerfed big style with the weapon normalisation, but until then your BRD dagger that you could solo lasted through Strat/Scholo/UBRS/DM all the way to the end of MC.

Not a good precedent. Rather than insert a meaningful upgrade in between (that doesn't have a crappy proc) - lets nerf the mechanism causing the trouble.

The core problem here, once again, is a horrible lack of itemization. Even if Blizzard did normalize CP to, say, 1.6 speed, we wouldn't be any better off for choices. There are only two 1.6 speed non-dagger weapons with DPS above 72: one of which has tank stats, and the other is blacksmithing only. I really don't understand why there is this annoying gap.

Likewise, after seeing DPS meter postings, I can't see any reason why they don't revert weapon skill to its old form. That was an ideal mechanic for ensuring that Rogues did significantly more DPS than other classes in raid situations (to outweigh lack of other functions), but not effect class vs class balances in PvP. This would also help ensure our lead over other hybrid melee classes (such as enhancement shaman, kitty druids, etc.) since a Combat rogue would have an innate 10 skill lead.

Old school WS is never going to come back.
It was fine when we first really twigged to it as 80% of a server population had reached 60 and wasn't going to abuse the hell out of it to level (because you couldn't - almost all the +skill was end game).

Blizz is now intending to release an x-pac a year. You can't have old school WS when there's that much more levelling going on. It trivialises content for the priveleged few.

The same is true of any absolute mechanic you try and insert to mitigate glancing even if outside of WS. Yes, short term it provides a boost versus end game mobs - but long term you're buffing level progression.

The only way I sould see them getting out the hole they're in is to implement a seperate stat rating akin to resilience. This rating deceases the mobs glancing blows versus you. Unlike current ratings, make it scale horribly.

Yes, you'd still have an advantage for that first level of leveling in the new xpac - but if at 71 it took two to three times as much rating for the same glancing reduction, your advantage gets wiped very fast. Don't itemise this rating until near end game of each expansion - leaves a dead zone whilst leveling where other ratings/stats simply retain their worth much better so are incentivised. It's no longer worth keeping that 70 epic at 72 because it reduces your glancing for better farming - +agi flat out beats it.

It's a PVE only stat, so it's never going to effect PvP. Honestly, I can't actually think of a good reason why this can't be implemented.

In my opinion it seems like a horrible idea to suggest that balancing this game around a week of leveling every year instead of the actual content between expansions is their motive. I hope it is not, but anyway, things don't have to be done by weapon skill.

At the moment, I am not losing to any other classes for damage, but from what I hear I have come to the conclusion that we don't have good caster dps in our guild. If rogues in general are losing to mages and blizzard intends rogue to be top dps... There are many ways of fixing that without breaking PVP class balance. A Slice n' Dice buff or converting some dodge on end game rogue gear to damage stats would work. Something like the 2-piece bonus on T4 is the right idea.

We stand behind the mob, so who cares about parry? thats 2.4% you can remove off his net increase. With surprise attacks your finishers dont get dodged, so thats porbably 0.1% off there. This +crit -miss and -dodge is ok, but is it worth it for the cost? I still do not buy in to +skill being the best stat a rogue can get.

After some research I found that at lvl 70 it takes 3.9 +skill rating for 1 +weapon skill?

So the bonuses above would be achieved by only +16 weaponskill rating?Well now that does not sound too bad... Be a lot better if the less chance to be parried was swapped with the less chance to dodge (or maybe if they want to be CrAzY they could swap it with the less chance to miss =).

Of course, this is if his number are correct. Just because a blue posted it really does not make me believe it is the truth. Sadly.

As a long time sword rogue I would appreciate a little help here, youre threads have all been awesome all the BS ive been experiencing on the lack of a fast oh I see others are struggling with as well.

Heres the Nilly in a nutshell, Curently using Vindicators till Kaz or Nether drops their MH.But the real problem is of course the OH, The guild has the recipe for Felsteel longblade so it was no biggie on having one made, And i have Latro`s. I am currently using Felsteel as an OH and have been experimenting with the following


Always have SND up and swapping Abacus and BF procs on the offtimes, Correct me if im wrong in my thinking on the following, With Snd and the other 2 up my Oh is now hitting on avrg like a 1.4 spd sword, And I cant hit faster than 1.0 not counting sword procs if im correct.


So am i working to hard on getting the most out of that felsteel long blade`s 83 dps and nice stats? or should i just stick mongoose on Latro`s and call it good till a 1.6 or faster OH comes down the pike.

Thanks in advance, Need all the help i can get to keep us rogues a viable end game dps source (specially using sword) and pleeeease dont just say Go dagger

If you believe pf's spreadsheet (and there is no reasonnot to) then Latro's is a better offhand for a 17/41/0+3 combat sword rogue that Blazeguard, the 88 dps 1,6 speed blacksmith sword.

This should answer your question.

No, an easier fix would be to fix Latro's. Can you say 1.5 or 1.6 speed? Then add in a couple nice 1.5 or 1.4 swords AND offhand fists.

I do believe his speadsheet its awesome work, But plugging in my numbers SS wins each time, so in saying so, Lets assume for calculations sake im not using shiv and sticking with the tried and true SS, in the course of a kara run (5 hour clear) would the Wht damage/crits of the felsteel blade make up for less energy generation of the latros? (at a hit rate of 17%)

Bear in mind SND is up constantly and abacus/BF on top of that

Does it sound like im trying to convince myself that getting a felsteel, putting a mongoose on it and hopeing i could make up for the slowness by keeping my haste/speed up Was the right decision? Well youd be right (even old school boys are newbs at times)

I based alot on the fact that my OH doesnt hit faster than 1.0 besides procs..is that a correct assumption?

Thanks again for youre help with this

If you're thinking that there's a 1.0s cap on swing speed, you're wrong; SnD+BF can take a weapon down below 1.0.

Kalman is right. With SnD + BF + 2pc Assassination + Abacus of Violent Odds, i can get my OH (Searing Sunblade 1.3 speed) down to .60 speed.

3/9 19:39:59.160 You hit Bladespire Crusher for 183.
3/9 19:39:59.957 You hit Bladespire Crusher for 174.

Two succesive OH attacks.

A little bit of an aside, I found something interesting with sap and the paladin shield pull last night. If you time it correctly, you can sap after the damage goes off, allowing you to do your CC successfully. Sap just before, just as or just barely after the shield hits. As soon as you see the shield fly towards your target, hit sap and it should work.

Problem 1 solved..Felsteel will work on trash were energy regeneration isnt an issue and they die within 2-3 secs, So at least there`s no gold wasted. Now onto my last question.

Problem 2: Boss fight`s with a sword specced rogue 20/41/0, latro`s as its a sword(stating the obvious) and having sword skill etc..or searing sunblade as ive got badges to burn and its a higher dps, faster weapon?

Thanks for you're informed intelligent advice...sure as hell beats the WOW forums..

sylvestro,
1) i wouldnt waste Felsteel Bar x10, Primal Might x8 and Primal Nether x2 on something that only works on trash, and those 10dps arnt the end of all.
2) you are sword specced and considering a dagger in your offhand? back to school dude and i wonder why ppl specc 20/41/0 and not 17/44/0

PS: add the armory link to your profile pls i cant find a sylvestro on eu-dalaran

People spec 20/41 because its the higher dps build, at least if you believe the spreadsheet, and there is no reason you shouldn't.

Didint need money and one of my alts makes mights, have been stockpiling em for? so 10 mights out of 30 saved, meh no biggie, One of my best friends in game is a miner has hundreds of ore also no biggie, And we run 4-5 heroics per day on off raid days and weekends so also no biggie on the nethers.

At this level of play ill take anything that works the best for the given situation hence having a felsteel for misc trash and was trying to go to school here to see what was the best OH for Bosses, IE: sunblade or latro`s.. As for going back to school, not everyone knows everything..Especially me and im not afraid to admit it, or else why would i be here trying to better my rogue?

Being in the top guild on a server is a challenge in of itself, Was just looking for a place where people were willing to help with questions and provide me with legitimate reasons why ( latro`s is better than sunblade as an OH) ETC...instead of just saying "go back to school" or "youre a nub" . hehe cause i already knew that much on my own. Hence no link cause i dont know how.

Thanks again Mimesis for your help btw.

(Sylvestro on US Dalaran)