Well, I'm certainly no expert, but the principles as I understand it are below.

In general, each of the weapon specialisation gives you about a 5% damage bonus to attacks with that weapon.

In the case of daggers and fists, the bonus comes in the form of extra crits. In the case of swords, it comes in the form of extra attacks. In the case of maces, it comes as a skill increase, and (correct me if I'm wrong) comes out as something less than 5% bonus anyway.

The devil is in the detail - the extra attack you get from sword spec is always a main hand attack, regardless of whether it procs off a main hand or an off hand hit.

Since there is at least a 25% penalty to offhand damage, that means that sword spec boosts the damage of an offhand sword considerably more than dagger spec boosts the damage of an offhand dagger. In your case, you're sword spec, which doesn't do *anything* for the dagger, so it's even more significant.

So, let's work out a couple of numbers, assuming 2100 AP. For simplicity we can also leave out miss/dodge/parry etc. as they're multiplicative and will have comparable effects in both cases.

Sunblade's base damage is about 80, plus 150 DPS from AP = 230 DPS. 25% offhand penalty takes that down to ~172.5 DPS.

Latro's base damage is about 70, plus 150 DPS from AP = 220 DPS. Taking into account the offhand penalty brings that to 165 DPS.

Now, you don't say what your main hand is, but if you have a similar quality weapon, you'll have something like 220-230 DPS in your main hand. Sword spec will effectively boost your offhand damage by ~ 5% of this, which is around 11 DPS. Add that on to the 165 base offhand damage of Latro's, and you'll see it's higher than the figure for Sunblade.

There actually isn't a huge amount in it, and if you have less than 2100 AP, the difference closes up still further. This calculation doesn't take account of the fact that you'll have more Combat Potency procs from the faster Sunblade, and doesn't take into account the other stats you get from Sunblade or Latro's. But while it's a bit ghetto, it at least explains why it's so important to use swords if you're specced for it.

Poison procs are pretty much even - while you'll have more poison procs from the Sunblade than from Latro's. the extra poison proc chances from the extra swings you get from sword spec will largely cancel that out. It'll depend strongly on whether you're running dual IP, mainhand IP and offhand DP, or mainhand DP and offhand IP.

So the answer is that it's likely to make very little difference, despite the large jump in base DPS. If you have the badges to burn, you could get one and test it out, but you'd be far better off getting a higher DPS sword in the offhand (as long as it's also as fast as Latro's or nearly so).

sorry, didnt mean to be rude. i thought i was pointing out the obvious.

I understand u didnt mean to be rude, but until i knew the theory behind sword spec, exactly, I was kinda stating the obvious for a reason, To see if there was something i didnt know.

So to sum up all ive learned (and ive learned a %$#load)

Main hand procs from a OH or an MH attk, But the extra attck will be on the MH not the OH

Becasue of the stats and my specialization The latro`s is a better OH than sunblade, Untill blizz makes a 1.6 spd or lower 80 plus dps OH sword.(or i become swordsmith)

Because of the energy generation and having a weapon able to hit faster than 1.0 The latros is a superior all around sword than felsteel longblade regardless of the 70 to 83 base dps difference.

I cant tell you all how much i appreciate you honest input without the degrading comments, Its refreshing to have a place to go with others who know the game mechanics far better than me and are willing to share their info. Thanks again and ill be checking back periodically to maybe see if i can help with my experiences.

If any of these statements are not true let me know where ive screwed up otherwise thanks again for all the help.

Quick question: If I have 5 combo points when I am forced to move out of melee range, is it worth it to do Deadly Throw, or should I just wait to get back in?

The damage from Deadly Throw is shit, the silence (from PvP gloves) and the snare are what you should be deciding to use your energy and CP on. The snare is devastating on melee classes, the silence is devasting on casters - won't really be able to tell you which to use, always.

My new favorite thing in the arenas is to catch a rogue, end an opener with rupture and lock him down with Deadly Throw at range to avoid being gouged and blinded (with a higher success rate anyway).

Anyone else thinks that the situation of combat dagger build is pretty much hopeless?

1) Obviously combat potency can't manage to balance it between combat SS and backstab builds, simply because the difference between dagger OHs and latro etc. isn't big enough to make up for the lack of extra finishers.

2) CD still lacks the ability to put the extra combo points generated by combat potency to any efficient use, which not only makes the spec quite boring but also makes it inefficient in the long run.

That being said, i start to wonder why sealfate doesn't get moved to combat already (or a similar talent in combat). It may sound radical but that's the only balance act i can think of, which puts both backstab and Sinister strike combat builds on the same level.


PS: right now it feels like that if someone wants to play with daggers on raid level, he either needs to go with the extremly poison dependant mutilate build or the obviously incomplete and out of syngery build which is combat dagger.

I can see CD faring better in 25 mans than the 5mans and Kara due to longer trash fights and less need to worry about offtanking/stunlocking mobs. That being said, I am not a big fan of the spec at this point for the reasons you mentioned. The only way I'd switch back is if Blizzard continues to itemize daggers with 1.3 offhands and we don't see anything slower than 1.6 or so for swords, but right now Latro's + (Vindicator's or better) is very appealing and provides more utility through positioning and CP generation while maintaining similar or better DPS compared to combat daggers. I'm still doing a bit of solo grinding and there's no real contest when it comes to doing that as CS vs. CD.

It does seem like the build needs some work at this point relative to CS but I wouldn't be surprised if they solved it through itemization (i.e. gimping swords) rather than boosting CD. Or maybe putting both Malchazeen and Emerald Ripper in Karazhan was their way of telling us that all dagger Rogues should be Mutilate spec'd.

I would not call Combat Dagger out of synergy.

Besides Latro's (which I still consider a unique exception to the rule) offhand swords tend to be slower than offahnd daggers, so sword rogues will - as they progress - have the choice of:
- sticking with Latro's
- using a slower but harder hitting offhand sword weakening Combat Potency
- using a dagger in the offhand loosing the weapon specialization benefit for the offhand
At least this is my guess. Blizzard may surprise us all with an 1.4 88 DPS offhand sword soon.

What Combat Dagger is lacking is a properly tuned Backstab. Pre 2.0, Combat Dagger was the best sustained DPS build, because it had the same white DPS as Combat Swords, but Backstabs DPE was so much better than Sinister Strike's that this would easily compensate for the fewer finishers, and then some.

However Backstab got almost no buff from 60 to 70. Compare that to what happened to Sinister Strike...

To be fair, the two points for improved sap hurt a dagger build more than a sword/fist build, since backstab crits more frequently than sinister strike.

That said, according to PF's spradsheet, the gladiator's shiv beats the searing sunblade by a bit, except with the highest possible buffed scearios. This surprised me a bit based on the amount with which latro's beats any other offhand for swords. Is this simply due to the fact that CD has difficulty making up for the extra combo points, or is the extra 8-9 dps from the shiv actually worth that much?

Good point on the improved sap, those 2 points are costing me around 20 dps buffed. I am tempted to drop it, but then I doubt I would be wanted much in a heroic. My guild is too lazy to work with a rogue that doesn't have improved sap in heroics, heh.

Actually, getting Imp. Sap ends up hurting a Sword rogue just as much (or more), since you end up losing 7 talent points getting it, not just 2. With the gear I have, I would gain 23 DPS dropping Imp. Sap as Swords, and only 11 DPS as Daggers (unbuffed).

The reason why Latro's is more important for Swords than Sunblade is for Daggers is because you get more Sword Spec procs in addition to the energy and poison procs.

There's nothing broken with Latro's itself. Its that Blizzard still hasn't gotten around to fixing the half-assed Sword Spec mechanic.

I'm pretty sure, based on my combat log / SCT text, that at the very least, certain extra attacks can proc each other. It's very satisfying seeing multiple messages fly up the screen. =) (I.e. Sword Spec -> Windfury -> Sword Spec)

Yes, I believe the change so that procs can't proc themselves is still in.

So no WF-WF-WF.

But procs can proc other procs, so SS-WF-SS is indeed possible - and very tasty when it happens.

HOJ, SS, Thrash, WF. Let the multi strike begin!

Hello again here`s another thread to think on. Lucky enuf to get Hope ender drops off kazzak last night, so heres the question. I know they normalized the speed thing back in the days of Dal Rends kicking the crap out of Brut blade(ie: 2.9 to 2.6), Hope ender being a 2.6 spd and Spite blade being a 2.7 both numbers are the same for hi and low end damage.

Will Spite blade be hitting harder than hope ender on a 19/42/0 sword specced rogue? just becuse of the speed alone?

Part 2 of my question still pertaining to my earlier thread on OH swords..any thoughts on kings defender (1.6 spd 82dps) versus latro`s?

speed is only a question for hemo. all other skills (leaving out ghostly and riposte) are normalized

Combat Potency and MH sword procs from OH hits are really the big issue here.

Check out the Pf/Kalman rogue DPS spreadsheet(calculator) (that's usually on the first page of the CM&T forum). Generally pretty good modeling of "events" of that sort.

Does Quick Recovery return 80% of the energy of an immuned Kidney Shot?

Can anyone confirm/deny that ~310 hit rating is the max one should reach before focusing on other stats for a raiding rogue (with combat potency)? I am just curious if this would be approximately the correct number to never miss on a boss mob (at 70, such as Gruul, Nightbane, etc..).

24.7% miss rate for your average 63 mob. 15.77 hit rating per %. 5% from precision. 310 hit rating is, in fact, the cap. (Oops, I mean 73.)

Bunch of Mutilate questions...

1) Is Imp KS worth it/necessary?

2) Is Master Poisoner worth it?

3) Is Ruthlessness important for Mutilate, or do you already have plenty of combo points without it?

4) Is imp SS (or maybe imp BS?) worth it for poison immune mobs, or for when CS/KS miss? I'm not quite certain when youwould be using these other than poison immune mobs, or when you just need an extra combo point. For non-immune mobs, I'd think you could just use Shiv and save some talent points.

My goals are 5-man content, heroics, maybe some Kara raids, and world pvp/BGs periodically. I'm not looking for a pure raiding build. I've seen a lot of numbers tossed around (44/10/7, 41/13/7) and while I can guess at what they contain, I've never seen a good spec actually linked so that I can see the point allocation.

Going to miss my precious MoD and Camo, but I think I'll survive.

I haven't seen as much content as other Rogues on this board, but I've been playing various Mutilate specs since 2.0 came out so have a pretty good feel for how to play it well. My Armory link shows my current 41/13/7 spec, which is designed to help with my regular 5-man group that has a bear tank via Imp EA.

1) If I'm running 5-mans and Karazhan, I would feel much more comfortable with Imp KS. It's particularly powerful in Heroics, both to protect the tanks or help burn things down when you're kiting. Once I start doing more 25-man content I can imagine moving the points elsewhere, but for now I view Imp KS as one of the best things I can add to a group (the other being Imp Sap of course).

2) I haven't ever wished I had this talent in TBC. If there's ever another encounter like Huhuran I would probably take it, but for now I'd put the points elsewhere.

3) I usually have 2-3 points in Ruthlessness to help avoid ending up with only 4 CPs after 2 Mutilates. You can also do a CB Mutilate to get back to 4 CPs after a Ruthlessness proc when your SnD is about to run out.

4) It's nice to be able to swap out a sword and SS when it's impossible to get behind a mob (Evasion tanking, etc). The number of poison-immune mobs is thankfully low, and until the cleave changes go live it might be worth putting the points in Lightning Reflexes to increase your survivability. Still on the fence about this one myself.

I played 46/8/7 for a while at 70, and having both Imp Poisons and Vile Poisons made Envenom a viable finisher, particularly on mobs with low health. I know Kalman and pf disagree about Envenom in raid situations, and I'm currently using 5/5 Imp Poisons to make sure my target stays poisoned and am using Evis as my standard finisher. There were just too many times I'd get a Ruthlessness proc and a crit Mutilate and be back at 4 CPs ready to do a finisher, but my DP stack was still only at 2 or 3. In my experience a fully talented Envenom is great when the mob dies in your 10-second CS-KS stun, but you really end up having to run dual DP to make sure you're at a full stack when you need it.

I'm a 30/24/7 which I'm really quite liking. You can see my gear and spec from my name link to the Armory.

I did have Imp EA because we had a bunch of bear tanks, but they've gone AWOL so I dropped it for our sundering warriors.

The combo point generation is very good, the damage is great. The only person that I can't beat on our Kara runs is an insanely well played and geared warlock.

I did have Mutilate, but found that there were so many poison immune mobs in various places that the points were "wasted", and looking at the damage comparisons that some people have done (and I ran on my own gear) I decided for the relatively minor DPS increase of Mutilate over Backstab alone, having the combat talents up to blade flurry would be well in advance of the damage lost to dropping Mutilate.

I feel like I've got a good balance between utility and dps with this build.