Mist

Also, does anyone have consolidated talent info. I've seen the tier 7+ talents, but not any changes to the lower tiers.

 

Kobal

Personally I think it is a good idea to have a separate thread about the BC changes for each class, so I hope this one can avoid the heap.

However, the thread would probably be even better if you could also include the information about the new/modified talents in the first post.

 

exog

stupid if mutilate is daggers only, here i hoped that swords would finally have a decent opener on fex mages, yay yay go garrotte! (and no, imp kick isnt viable for all builds)

 

Kobal

If Mutilate is not daggers only, it will most likely make Sinister Strike obsolete.

A little math: Assuming weapons of about equal weapon speed and DPS in both hands and DW spec Mutilate will give 175% weapon damage for 60 Energy, while Sinister Strike will give 106% weapon damage +139 for 40 Energy. So around 870 weapon damage Mutilate will have better Damage/Energy.

A weapon damage of 870 is probably not reachable even in the expansion, however even below that treshold Mutilate will be pretty close, and it will allow for more than twice as many Eviscerates (since the amount of CPs to maintain SnD stays the same) and for more poison procs etc.

 

Xard

Any chance that maybe mutilate has a cooldown?

I see it similar to the "surprise attack" talent in assassination. Good hits for daggers that cost a lot less energy per CP, thus greatly increasing the CP gain of the build, especially when paired with seal fate. From 100 energy you could backstab once, wait, then backstab again for 2 to 4 cp, depending on crits, or surprise attack, then mutilate with no wait, and 3 to 5 combo points. Then after just one tick you can do any finisher you want, which seems to be the way they're moving with assassination.

The Angelmaker - http://ctprofiles.net/911671

 

Shaine

I wonder if mutilate crits with sf could mean 3 cps.

 

Khalikryst

This may be completely unrelated, but something tells me this is for rogues...

While perusing the full list of leaked spells, I came across this Leatherworking (or maybe Tailoring) recipe for "Comfortable Insoles"
http://www.curse-gaming.com/en/wow/s...e-insoles.html
http://www.curse-gaming.com/en/wow/s...e-insoles.html

I'm guessing it's maybe a +stealth buff for boots?

 

Kody

Yeah there's 2 ranks of Deadly Poison in the spell list.

Rank 6 is 180/3 sec with 5 applications, Rank 7 is 225/3 sec with 5 applications. Seems like the lower level ranks that replaced AQ20 books aren't much better than the books, but the higher ranks near 70 are fairly substantial improvements over stuff currently available(or even low 60s versions).

 

Vhal

Well (with the Blade Twisting talent), I'm seeing this as a huge PvP talent -- what you get is a reasonable (40% chance per SS) of proccing a non-decursable snare. As a PvP rogue, that's huge. It also means that for a PvP rogue in combat, the mainhand poison spot can now be something other than crippling. Then, add Shiv to the mix, and the end result is an extreme increase in variation of viable PvP poison loadouts.

 

henaki

My problem isn't with poisons itself, it's the convenience of changing them depending on targets, and the money you have to spend to change them. If poisons were instant cast and cost maybe 1/8th the price I would be switching poisons extremely often in battlegrounds. Otherwise I really don't need them to apply that badly. I'd bust out Wound or Mind-Numbing if it was convenient but otherwise they remain novelties compared to my dual Crip, Instant or Deadly combos, which are basically PvP, Grinding, Raiding :/

Gur - Level 64 Undead Warlock on Hellfire

 

• Wodin

It's also a non-positional dagger attack. Hallelujah - I hate Thaddius so much for the variability in position. The combo points will also make it feasible to expect a PvE-specced rogue to be able to use utility finishers in PvE(well, at a significant damage loss, but better than it is now).

Honestly, it looks like there's a lot of work left to be done - we have no idea how these new skills interact with current talents like Seal Fate. Nevertheless, it looks like there's something for everyone. Nothing on the absurd power level that some of the other classes seem to be getting, but a lot of solid reinforcements to the class concept.

 

◊ Praetorian

175% backstab alone is a pretty tremendous daggers buff, isn't it?

 

Vhal

Well, I run crippling main/wounding offhand by and large for PvP. In the expansion, assuming I get a hold of a good SS weapon before a good dagger, I'm currently thinking that wounding main, mind numbing off is going to be a better loadout -- you'll get the dazes (which, even though they are less of a snare than crippling, they aren't decursable, which is a huge, huge advantage), wounding as you hit the target, and then mind numbing available via Shiv.

The big change is Blade Twisting means that you can put something other than crippling on your mainhand, and Shiv makes your offhand poison more than a novelty (which I full well admit that my wounding on my offhand is; more than anything else, it serves as an additional poison effect on the target to be decursed off).

Come the expansion, no one will have mainhand poison raiding.

 

• Wodin

Oh definitely, as is +131 for Sinister Strike.

 

◊ Kalman

If Backstab 9 went from 150% to 175% base (ignoring the boost to the static component), I'd expect to receive a ~45 DPS increase from it (with mixed BWL/MC gear and a Perdition's).

Yeah, it's a pretty impressive boost.

edit: For comparison, the SS boost is around 15 DPS.

http://mmorchive.net

The WoW forums, explained:

 

Vhal

Yes, very much so. It makes me wonder if we're going to see a similar boost to Ambush.

 

henaki

Blade Twisting won't always proc though, however I'll be much more satisfied MHing a different poison (likely Wound or Mind Numbing) and OHing Crip and just Shiv it. Come expansion I expect to be Subtlety/Combat based on the current talents anyway.

Gur - Level 64 Undead Warlock on Hellfire

 

Mist

Just use deadly poison on raid bosses. 40 debuff slots in the expansion.

 

Trazhenko

To be fair, you're ignoring the +30% to crit from imp. backstab and the +6% damage from aggression, both of which are things a raiding rogue would probably have with daggers or swords, respectively.

Assume 30% tooltip crit, all other things equal, etc.:

For SS:
2.4 * 1.06 * (1 + (.30 * 1.3)) = 3.53616
(adding aggression, then crit with 5/5 lethality)

For BS:
3.06 * (1 + (.60 * 1.3)) = 5.4468
(crits with 5/5 lethality)

5.4468 / 3.53616 = 1.54

54% advantage for 50% more energy, and a positional requirement.

Now most raiding dagger rogues have gone the route of 4/5 lethality so they can get AR. That gives us:

5.33664 / 3.53616 = 1.51

It's almost a total wash. I agree that the buff is deserved though, because without the CP to do anything other than keep up SnD, the SS rogue will overcome that 1-4% with his extra finishers.

 

Vhal

Well, assuming you start unstealthed, and just dump energy, you'll get three SSes in two global cooldowns, and have a 78.4% chance of having the target dazed in that time. You get the same odds doing cs, ss, ks, ss, ss over a longer period of time (but with stuns involved). That's enough for me to replace crippling on the mainhand in good conscience.

Crippling offhand with emergency application via Shiv is definitely doable, but I'm currently thinking Mind-numbing offhand instead; never expect it to proc on its own, but drop a Shiv on a caster as needed.

Not sure if I'll be willing to give up Lethality to go Combat/Subtlety. I do think Combat looks to be the best PvP tree from what we've seen, though. That said, AR + Prep is going to be tough to beat.

 

Vhal

Windfury mainhand. No poison is going to be able to compete unless you need a specific debuff (snare, wound, etc) to free extra attacks with a 400 AP bonus.

My suspicion is deadly isn't going to be viable as an offhand poison, but I really haven't done the requisite math to back that up.

 

Mist

Well the mob needs to be in the 'poisoned' state to get the bonuses from Shadow Strikes. So DP is just gonna have to make do, I doubt you can daze bosses.

 

• QControl

So, official rogue talent calculator is up and there are some differences.

Mutilate is the 41pt. Assassination talent. Requires daggers, gives +30% crit if the target is poisoned, and requires you to be behind the target(haha).
Surprise Attacks is the 41pt. Combat talent and makes it so SS, BS, and Gouge can't be dodged. Big disappointment for me as compared to Shadow Strikes.

 

Vhal

Oops. Using the real value for Blade Twisting, the above is around 58%, which is much less exciting.

Hrm.

I need to go over the new stuff again, but I'm suddenly seeming way less excited about the expansion.

 

◊ Malan

Big News!!
Part 1 of Official Release!

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/burni...nd-spells.html

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."