stupid if mutilate is daggers only, here i hoped that swords would finally have a decent opener on fex mages, yay yay go garrotte! (and no, imp kick isnt viable for all builds)
stupid if mutilate is daggers only, here i hoped that swords would finally have a decent opener on fex mages, yay yay go garrotte! (and no, imp kick isnt viable for all builds)
If Mutilate is not daggers only, it will most likely make Sinister Strike obsolete.
A little math: Assuming weapons of about equal weapon speed and DPS in both hands and DW spec Mutilate will give 175% weapon damage for 60 Energy, while Sinister Strike will give 106% weapon damage +139 for 40 Energy. So around 870 weapon damage Mutilate will have better Damage/Energy.
A weapon damage of 870 is probably not reachable even in the expansion, however even below that treshold Mutilate will be pretty close, and it will allow for more than twice as many Eviscerates (since the amount of CPs to maintain SnD stays the same) and for more poison procs etc.
I see it similar to the "surprise attack" talent in assassination. Good hits for daggers that cost a lot less energy per CP, thus greatly increasing the CP gain of the build, especially when paired with seal fate. From 100 energy you could backstab once, wait, then backstab again for 2 to 4 cp, depending on crits, or surprise attack, then mutilate with no wait, and 3 to 5 combo points. Then after just one tick you can do any finisher you want, which seems to be the way they're moving with assassination.
Yeah there's 2 ranks of Deadly Poison in the spell list.
Rank 6 is 180/3 sec with 5 applications, Rank 7 is 225/3 sec with 5 applications. Seems like the lower level ranks that replaced AQ20 books aren't much better than the books, but the higher ranks near 70 are fairly substantial improvements over stuff currently available(or even low 60s versions).
The other information wandering around makes it seem like the dazed condition, which is sort of terrible as a form of crowd control when you think about it, is going to start gaining some strength AND appliers (judging from the other thread, not rogue specific). I mention this in context of hey, if people are 5% resisting your snares and roots, dazed is pretty handy at keeping that flagger around while the calvary rides up.
Well (with the Blade Twisting talent), I'm seeing this as a huge PvP talent -- what you get is a reasonable (40% chance per SS) of proccing a non-decursable snare. As a PvP rogue, that's huge. It also means that for a PvP rogue in combat, the mainhand poison spot can now be something other than crippling. Then, add Shiv to the mix, and the end result is an extreme increase in variation of viable PvP poison loadouts.
The other information wandering around makes it seem like the dazed condition, which is sort of terrible as a form of crowd control when you think about it, is going to start gaining some strength AND appliers (judging from the other thread, not rogue specific). I mention this in context of hey, if people are 5% resisting your snares and roots, dazed is pretty handy at keeping that flagger around while the calvary rides up.
Well (with the Blade Twisting talent), I'm seeing this as a huge PvP talent -- what you get is a reasonable (40% chance per SS) of proccing a non-decursable snare. As a PvP rogue, that's huge. It also means that for a PvP rogue in combat, the mainhand poison spot can now be something other than crippling. Then, add Shiv to the mix, and the end result is an extreme increase in variation of viable PvP poison loadouts.
My problem isn't with poisons itself, it's the convenience of changing them depending on targets, and the money you have to spend to change them. If poisons were instant cast and cost maybe 1/8th the price I would be switching poisons extremely often in battlegrounds. Otherwise I really don't need them to apply that badly. I'd bust out Wound or Mind-Numbing if it was convenient but otherwise they remain novelties compared to my dual Crip, Instant or Deadly combos, which are basically PvP, Grinding, Raiding :/
Mutilate seems like a really great way to get SnD going, where backstab currently has serious problems requiring ~25 seconds to get it started.
It's also a non-positional dagger attack. Hallelujah - I hate Thaddius so much for the variability in position. The combo points will also make it feasible to expect a PvE-specced rogue to be able to use utility finishers in PvE(well, at a significant damage loss, but better than it is now).
Honestly, it looks like there's a lot of work left to be done - we have no idea how these new skills interact with current talents like Seal Fate. Nevertheless, it looks like there's something for everyone. Nothing on the absurd power level that some of the other classes seem to be getting, but a lot of solid reinforcements to the class concept.
My problem isn't with poisons itself, it's the convenience of changing them depending on targets, and the money you have to spend to change them. If poisons were instant cast and cost maybe 1/8th the price I would be switching poisons extremely often in battlegrounds. Otherwise I really don't need them to apply that badly. I'd bust out Wound or Mind-Numbing if it was convenient but otherwise they remain novelties compared to my dual Crip, Instant or Deadly combos, which are basically PvP, Grinding, Raiding :/
Well, I run crippling main/wounding offhand by and large for PvP. In the expansion, assuming I get a hold of a good SS weapon before a good dagger, I'm currently thinking that wounding main, mind numbing off is going to be a better loadout -- you'll get the dazes (which, even though they are less of a snare than crippling, they aren't decursable, which is a huge, huge advantage), wounding as you hit the target, and then mind numbing available via Shiv.
The big change is Blade Twisting means that you can put something other than crippling on your mainhand, and Shiv makes your offhand poison more than a novelty (which I full well admit that my wounding on my offhand is; more than anything else, it serves as an additional poison effect on the target to be decursed off).
Come the expansion, no one will have mainhand poison raiding.
175% backstab alone is a pretty tremendous daggers buff, isn't it?
If Backstab 9 went from 150% to 175% base (ignoring the boost to the static component), I'd expect to receive a ~45 DPS increase from it (with mixed BWL/MC gear and a Perdition's).
Yeah, it's a pretty impressive boost.
edit: For comparison, the SS boost is around 15 DPS.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
The big change is Blade Twisting means that you can put something other than crippling on your mainhand, and Shiv makes your offhand poison more than a novelty (which I full well admit that my wounding on my offhand is; more than anything else, it serves as an additional poison effect on the target to be decursed off).
Blade Twisting won't always proc though, however I'll be much more satisfied MHing a different poison (likely Wound or Mind Numbing) and OHing Crip and just Shiv it. Come expansion I expect to be Subtlety/Combat based on the current talents anyway.
175% backstab alone is a pretty tremendous daggers buff, isn't it?
As I posted in another thread, I think this was due to a realization that backstab wasn't scaling as well as sinister strike.
Currently, assuming 1.7 dagger damage (per point of damage) and 2.4 sword damage, a backstab is getting [1.7 (dagger) * 1.5 (backstab) * 1.2 (opportunity)]
[top] 3.06 benefit per point of weapon damage, whereas a sword gets the direct 2.4 benefit. 3.06/2.4
27.5% more benefit, while it costs 50% more energy.
Making the change, we get 1.7*1.75*1.2 = 3.57, which divided by 2.4 is 48.8% more benefit over sinister strike (scaling well enough for the energy cost). Much more reasonable in the long term, considering that you're losing cp gain and the ability to easily attack things that don't have solid aggro on a stationery target.
I'd also be a little disappointed if Daze effects can't be applied to raid bosses, even if they don't get slowed by it.
To be fair, you're ignoring the +30% to crit from imp. backstab and the +6% damage from aggression, both of which are things a raiding rogue would probably have with daggers or swords, respectively.
Assume 30% tooltip crit, all other things equal, etc.:
For SS:
2.4 * 1.06 * (1 + (.30 * 1.3)) = 3.53616
(adding aggression, then crit with 5/5 lethality)
For BS:
3.06 * (1 + (.60 * 1.3)) = 5.4468
(crits with 5/5 lethality)
5.4468 / 3.53616 = 1.54
54% advantage for 50% more energy, and a positional requirement.
Now most raiding dagger rogues have gone the route of 4/5 lethality so they can get AR. That gives us:
5.33664 / 3.53616 = 1.51
It's almost a total wash. I agree that the buff is deserved though, because without the CP to do anything other than keep up SnD, the SS rogue will overcome that 1-4% with his extra finishers.
Blade Twisting won't always proc though, however I'll be much more satisfied MHing a different poison (likely Wound or Mind Numbing) and OHing Crip and just Shiv it. Come expansion I expect to be Subtlety/Combat based on the current talents anyway.
Well, assuming you start unstealthed, and just dump energy, you'll get three SSes in two global cooldowns, and have a 78.4% chance of having the target dazed in that time. You get the same odds doing cs, ss, ks, ss, ss over a longer period of time (but with stuns involved). That's enough for me to replace crippling on the mainhand in good conscience.
Crippling offhand with emergency application via Shiv is definitely doable, but I'm currently thinking Mind-numbing offhand instead; never expect it to proc on its own, but drop a Shiv on a caster as needed.
Not sure if I'll be willing to give up Lethality to go Combat/Subtlety. I do think Combat looks to be the best PvP tree from what we've seen, though. That said, AR + Prep is going to be tough to beat.
Just use deadly poison on raid bosses. 40 debuff slots in the expansion.
Windfury mainhand. No poison is going to be able to compete unless you need a specific debuff (snare, wound, etc) to free extra attacks with a 400 AP bonus.
My suspicion is deadly isn't going to be viable as an offhand poison, but I really haven't done the requisite math to back that up.
Just use deadly poison on raid bosses. 40 debuff slots in the expansion.
Windfury mainhand. No poison is going to be able to compete unless you need a specific debuff (snare, wound, etc) to free extra attacks with a 400 AP bonus.
My suspicion is deadly isn't going to be viable as an offhand poison, but I really haven't done the requisite math to back that up.
Well the mob needs to be in the 'poisoned' state to get the bonuses from Shadow Strikes. So DP is just gonna have to make do, I doubt you can daze bosses.
So, official rogue talent calculator is up and there are some differences.
Mutilate is the 41pt. Assassination talent. Requires daggers, gives +30% crit if the target is poisoned, and requires you to be behind the target(haha).
Surprise Attacks is the 41pt. Combat talent and makes it so SS, BS, and Gouge can't be dodged. Big disappointment for me as compared to Shadow Strikes.
Well, assuming you start unstealthed, and just dump energy, you'll get three SSes in two global cooldowns, and have a 78.4% chance of having the target dazed in that time. You get the same odds doing cs, ss, ks, ss, ss over a longer period of time (but with stuns involved). That's enough for me to replace crippling on the mainhand in good conscience.
Oops. Using the real value for Blade Twisting, the above is around 58%, which is much less exciting.
Hrm.
I need to go over the new stuff again, but I'm suddenly seeming way less excited about the expansion.
08/28/06, 6:31 AM
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