Mist

Shadow Striking was a 10% damage increase for 1 talent point. Completely overpowered. This talent is pretty well balanced, and it'll improve your damage and it's just plain amazing in PvP.

 

Faytte

Very underwhelming now. The last combat pve talent isnt that great, considering the warrior new talents. Mutilate sounds interesting but at 60 energy im not convinced thats going to a PvE option vs Backstab.

Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)

 

◊ Kalman

60 energy for 2x weapon damage and 2 CP vs. 60 energy for 210% + static and 1 CP, with equal crit rates.

Unless Opportunity affects Mutilate as well, I can't really see it being worth doing consistently.

http://mmorchive.net

The WoW forums, explained:

 

Shaine

First thought about my lvl70 rog:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000

Edit: hmm, on second thought this just doesn't make any sense now :shy:

 

Vhal

So far, I think the three second silence on Garrote and Shiv are the most exciting things so far. I'm thus far not impressed with any of the deep talent trees so far.

 

• Avair

Omg, Rogues win! A Ranged Snare! No more kiting casters.

Disembowel seems like just another Eviscerate, with a drawback of requiring 5/5 deadly poison to do full damage. Not sure i understand it.

Garotte now silences for 3 secs.

 

Squarepusher

QControl, where is the talent calc?

Thank-you so much, Murr, for this thread and everyone adding to it. For those of us who's RLs have taken a turn and are watching as membership in uber guilds slip away both due to Naxx requirements and upcoming TBC 25man caps, getting an early taste of not just the talents, but the new skills, breathes some hope back into our tired games.

There's much too much information to quickly understand all the ramifications, but like many rogues I have been staring at the pressure DPS wars have been placing on our class for a very long time. Upon simply seeing the barebones talents, I was worried once again that Blizz was simply ramping up our survivability rather than dmg output. This still is a concern, but with the legit addition of +dps abilities, there seems to be less of a ceiling than I thought only a few days ago.

One thing that I am sure has been said before, is that I tend to think the situation is not a fault of warrior vs rogue scaling, energy vs rage production, global cooldowns vs anything else, but the issue actually lies in itemization. Beginning with weap normalization, Blizz began to errode the rogue's particular ability to squeeze more output out of a weapon than simply lay in its DPS value, while Fury wars (as I hear it) find DPS is King. This has continued in Naxx with flat, unassuming weapon itemization heavily reliant upon DPS ratings to create value. Even to this day, hold a Perd next to a Maex Fang and wonder a bit - What has a year of raid experience gotten me, exactly?

We no longer have variability in weapon design with the neutering of weapon speed coupled with Blizz ignoring it for itemization purposes. It so feels that back in the day a weapon could make rogues drool and warriors shrug their shoulders and vice versa. I hope and want Blizz to maintain a distinction between those of us who maintain the ability to spec prot and those of us who have choosen to remain the light infantry of this game world, despite momentary fluctuations in relative power.

Rogues need itemization that favors us as a class and we need Blizzard's support to maintain performance as a DPS class with a rightful place in 25man instances. A strong path to 70 with new skills, ranks, and talents is the beginning of that journey.

 

Deathwing

Compared to warrior talents? Ok, I'm not trying to turn this into a DPS warrior whine thread, but what looks so good about warrior talents? 3% hit, 6% AP, and Rampage, what honestly looks so good about those? I'm personally quite dissappointed.

Not to say the rogue ones are that great either, though.

 

• probiscus

Haha, I've been calling for a thrown weapon ranged knockdown or snare for months now. Though, I'd almost prefer the knockdown in lieu of the snare. Who cares if a mage is snared when he's casting. I'd rather wait for the end of that poly/pyro cast, throw something at him and make him blow his entire cast time. Though with 30 yard range that would be pretty ridiculous.

As it always should have. /RP

 

• QControl

Disembowl seems to be another way for Blizzard to increase our pve damage without affecting pvp. It does more damage than the equivalent level Eviscerate provided you have a 5 stack of DP on the mob, which you should in pve. Hopefully it will have better scaling with AP than eviscerate as well.

Edit: For those that haven't seen it, http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/burni...nd-spells.html

 

Faytte

In one tree you now get 3% hit, 6% AP and 200 additional AP. Those may not be ground breaking DPS increases but atleast they are DPS increases. As a raiding rogue, the new combat talents are terribly great. 10% to resist a fear really aint high enough to be realiable. 4% Stamina is nice but with my armor 4% doesnt really mean much. Daze I assume will be more applicable in 25 mans given how many effects seem based off it (notice warrior shield slam and heroic strikes).

Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)

 

• Wodin

I hadn't even thought of that, but it would make Assassination much more viable if Disembowel had a high scaling factor. Sadly the rogue in the screenshots is using a nonsense equipment set, or we could id an expected AP value and try to derive the scaling.

4% stamina will be very nice. Realistically though you may not even want to take the 10% Fear/Stun resist talent, because on fights with fear you run into the "I resisted and the tank didn't zerk fast enough" problem and get instagibbed.

 

• Avair

I will say, the 41 point combat skill, Surprise Attack is just booooooring. Who cares? Wow, +5% damage to my SS's.

Mage's get to summon water elementals! Dagger rogues get mutilate. Subtley rogues get to dodge fireballs. Where is my neato new skill?

 

Faytte

Assuming you take the final talent though (your pretty close already) its either 10% fear resistance or something else. As a dagger rogue theres not much left in the tree id toss 2 points on.

Since your here Wodin, correct me if im wrong but dont mobs not dodge if your behind them anyways (ergo the reason SS rogues stand behind mobs for dps?). If so the talent seems kinda silly. Or was it they just dodged less?

(i can never remember anything at work)

Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)

 

Dulahey

True, but we've yet to see if it will be worth a damn.

 

• Avair

Being behind a mob means they can't parry or block. They can always dodge. Surprise attacks basically gives your specials a 100% hit chance (with enough +hit gear)

 

• Wodin

They still dodge, just don't parry or block.

 

Faytte

Not that bad I guess. Where would you guys spend the 2 points, if not in fear prevention?

preliminary build:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000

Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)

 

Vhal

Oops. Missed the snare on Deadly Throw. Now I'm pumped.

I'm currently running 16/12/23 for PvP and loving it. The question for PvP dagger specs (my current love) is whether Cloak of Shadows is going to be worth the cost -- to take it, you'll have to drop either Lethality or Improved Backstab. I'm currently looking at a 16/12/33 spec. Cloak of Shadows is nice but you have to give up a lot to get to it.

 

◊ Kalman

Because dodged specials don't consume full energy, Surprise Attacks is a *really* underwhelming talent to me.

http://mmorchive.net

The WoW forums, explained:

 

• Avair

41 point talents shouldn't just be gain +x a bit more damage, where +x is probably small. They should be class/role defining, open up new strategic options or a bare minimum, be mildly interesting.

 

Celandro

It seems to me that with the lower raid caps and the adding of a raid wide buff to the arms tree, Blizzard is trying to give other classes the chance to tank. A dodge based rogue tank should be quite good assuming you get 75 defense from necklace+trinkets+rings so youd be immune to crit. Most of the talents and items are already there to do it btw.
Here is a very quick attempt at a hemo/dodge offtank rogue build:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...30321010531551

 

Vhal

Windfury on mainhand. Always Windfury on mainhand.

Is Disembowel there just in case a rogue doesn't have a shaman in the group for raiding?

Well, actually...

Rogues appear to be entering mage territory. Now someone gets to be Deadly Poison Bitch. Maybe this same poor soul gets to be Hemorrhage Bitch too.

 

• Wodin

Hmmm..

What happens if we say "fuck it" to Combat past 33? There's no real incentive for a rogue to bother with Daze anymore unless you're looking at it purely from a team-player perspective(making the warriors HS do more damage). With 8 points to spend, we can polish off Lethality and snag full Vile Poisons + Cold Blood + full Ruthlessness. Or we can fill out Deflection, snag Riposte, and fill out Improved Kick for the utility foursome of Endurance, Improved Sprint, Improved Kick, and Riposte. Subtlety would let you get Improved Feint, 3/5 MoD, and 3/3 Initiative for better pvp openers(though obviously that's the weakest option).

 

Inwe

Ive been merely skimming over posts but correct me if im wrong on this...Rogues can now either chose Mutilate or Backstab now for their main source of "yellow" DPS, right?

http://www.ctprofiles.net/909889