Ive been merely skimming over posts but correct me if im wrong on this...Rogues can now either chose Mutilate or Backstab now for their main source of "yellow" DPS, right?
Yes, but it'll be interesting to see which becomes the staple.
Backstab does more damage
Mutilate does 2x chances at poison application, 2x CPs
Mutilate isn't (currently) affected by Lethality or Opportunity though.
But then more finishers = find weakness up all the time.
The same question(s) can be asked of Disembowl - no talents to boost it, where Eviscerate has a couple.
In PvP I'm wondering how viable it'll be to get a poison on, Mutilate and finisher spam, then disembowl with 5x Deadly as a general strategy for taking people down.
If Mutilate (untalented) does end up as good as Backstab, then it certainly saves a lot of talent points. So I don't really see it happening.
Mutilates for 3CPs with Seal Fate will be *lovely* though ;)
I would love the option to OT Celandro, but itemization will determine that. What does it take to zero crits? Like 400+ defense? Unless we get a ton of +def/+stam leather, Dodge tanks still seems like playing russian roulette.
Re: Deadly Throw. You guys are missing something important here. Unless Throwing Weapons actually have stats in the expansion, they still suck.
To get Mutilate, you basically need to get Seal Fate. I must be missing something here, but Seal Fate builds dont have combo point problems. There's only one build that has combo point problems - combat daggers.
As a player I like Nerves of Steel. As a raider, I'd rather not die or wipe the raid because of it (and yes, sometimes us Alliance have to make due without Fear Ward too).
I would like the 41 combat talent if it was, say, 21 or 31.
Anesthetic Poison looks worthless to me. Seriously, just get rid of it. I'll want it even less often than Wound Poison.
Before you start to drift, and your soul begins to scream.
I just wanted to tell you, that you're listening to a dream.
Re: Deadly Throw. You guys are missing something important here. Unless Throwing Weapons actually have stats in the expansion, they still suck.
To get Mutilate, you basically need to get Seal Fate. I must be missing something here, but Seal Fate builds dont have combo point problems. There's only one build that has combo point problems - combat daggers.
As a player I like Nerves of Steel. As a raider, I'd rather not die or wipe the raid because of it (and yes, sometimes us Alliance have to make due without Fear Ward too).
I would like the 41 combat talent if it was, say, 21 or 31.
Anesthetic Poison looks worthless to me. Seriously, just get rid of it. I'll want it even less often than Wound Poison.
I'd agree re: CPs, except: with the added importance of finishers for things like Find Weakness, plus the utility ones (e.g. Flourish) - enough CPs so finishers happen much more often could be an interesting change of pace for the assassination spec. vs. other specs.
Shame you can't have Premed+CB. Premed->CB->Deadly throw would be fun.
Incidentally, even without stats, in PvP: Ranged snare + ~600 ranged instant damage >>> something like Striker's Mark.
Very underwhelming now. The last combat pve talent isnt that great, considering the warrior new talents. Mutilate sounds interesting but at 60 energy im not convinced thats going to a PvE option vs Backstab.
60 energy for 2x weapon damage and 2 CP vs. 60 energy for 210% + static and 1 CP, with equal crit rates.
Unless Opportunity affects Mutilate as well, I can't really see it being worth doing consistently.
Considering a lot of the other info was wrong, I am willing to bet the 175% backstab multiplier is wrong too.
Augh no. The more tools you're given to manage threat, the more you can assume that they'll be necessary. Warriors getting more +threat abilities and the raid having BoSal means that you can tune encounters around the threat generated by a prot warrior with Defiance and all the +threat stuff vs. a DPS class with Salvation.
Anesthetic Poison will be awesome because it will be the little extra bit of threat reduction on fights like Noth.
Time to let things percolate for a day or two - obviously they slapped the big disclaimer on them because they're still in flux, so constructive feedback once we've had a chance to think about it will probably be useful.
What happens if we say "fuck it" to Combat past 33? There's no real incentive for a rogue to bother with Daze anymore unless you're looking at it purely from a team-player perspective(making the warriors HS do more damage). With 8 points to spend, we can polish off Lethality and snag full Vile Poisons + Cold Blood + full Ruthlessness. Or we can fill out Deflection, snag Riposte, and fill out Improved Kick for the utility foursome of Endurance, Improved Sprint, Improved Kick, and Riposte. Subtlety would let you get Improved Feint, 3/5 MoD, and 3/3 Initiative for better pvp openers(though obviously that's the weakest option).
Um, or you could lose two points in combat somewhere and go Seal fate.
What happens if we say "fuck it" to Combat past 33? There's no real incentive for a rogue to bother with Daze anymore unless you're looking at it purely from a team-player perspective(making the warriors HS do more damage). With 8 points to spend, we can polish off Lethality and snag full Vile Poisons + Cold Blood + full Ruthlessness. Or we can fill out Deflection, snag Riposte, and fill out Improved Kick for the utility foursome of Endurance, Improved Sprint, Improved Kick, and Riposte. Subtlety would let you get Improved Feint, 3/5 MoD, and 3/3 Initiative for better pvp openers(though obviously that's the weakest option).
You know, I would kind of enjoy having my skills and talents help out the tank like that. While I like playing a very individualistic class, it'd be novel to have my talents actually work well with the tanks/other rogues to help everyone out, and not in the "token hemo bitch" manner.
The math will say if it's worth it, I suppose, but with a shift to 25-man, it would be nice to find a way to make "contribution to group" outweigh "individual numbers", if just to add to the sense of involvement we have. (Such as 3 rogues specced for group contribution/synergy outweigh/outdamage 3 rogues specced for max individual DPS.) As is, rogues can basically nap through a lot of encounters up until the point of learning at which it's stable enough for DPS to matter, and while part of me loves the sheer lack of stress involved with having only one thing to think about, part of me would really like to put more into/get more out of playing in a group than the class currently does.
I would love the option to OT Celandro, but itemization will determine that. What does it take to zero crits? Like 400+ defense? Unless we get a ton of +def/+stam leather, Dodge tanks still seems like playing russian roulette.
You missed the -2% chance to be crit with talents (Slight of Hand). 5.6 - 2 = 3.6 * 25 = +90 def required for 0 crits on level 63s. With level 70 itemization that shouldnt be too hard. But you dont have to be immune to crits to be viable as an offtank for most encounters. The offtanked mobs are sometimes level 60 now for example so youd only need +75. Or you can be ok with 1%crit chance since you can always use your evasion + whateverthenewparryoneis + vanish/cheap shot + 4s spell immunity + preparation to do it again if you get some spike damage or need to prevent a big spell from killing you.
I remember back in EQ when the guild I was in (Povar Triton) used an evasion tank rotation strategy on Yelinak. You could pull agro by sitting with your paladin style bubble on and have 100% immunity to spells + melee. Bards, clerics and warlocks would all rotate in for tanking. It was the most amusing way to kill a boss ever and resulted in nerfs. Apparently killing a boss while only taking a grand total of 60K damage in a 10 minute fight was considered abusive.
Evasion tanking works very well in certain situations and in most offtanking situations works just as well as high ac/def. In situations where the mob is stunnable, its even easier. The talents are there for an offtank rogue to have excellent combo point generation. Im almost tempted to level a rogue myself just to remind me of the good old days.
I agree with the general consensus that Suprise Attacks is pretty weak. ATM, as a sword rogue, I'm leaning more towards a 30/31/0 build (lose 1 pt from Aggression). This can get you more damage from poisons, more finishers, provide some anti-snare ability, increase heals on you, and/or increase damage on KS'd mobs... I just see a lot more utility (as well as damage) by putting more points in Assassination.
The one thing I'm wondering about is that Warriors also have a talent that lets them daze the target. Perhaps it will be possible to do to raid mobs, and we just don't know it yet.
Re: Deadly Throw. You guys are missing something important here. Unless Throwing Weapons actually have stats in the expansion, they still suck.
To get Mutilate, you basically need to get Seal Fate. I must be missing something here, but Seal Fate builds dont have combo point problems. There's only one build that has combo point problems - combat daggers.
As a player I like Nerves of Steel. As a raider, I'd rather not die or wipe the raid because of it (and yes, sometimes us Alliance have to make due without Fear Ward too).
I would like the 41 combat talent if it was, say, 21 or 31.
Anesthetic Poison looks worthless to me. Seriously, just get rid of it. I'll want it even less often than Wound Poison.
I'd agree re: CPs, except: with the added importance of finishers for things like Find Weakness, plus the utility ones (e.g. Flourish) - enough CPs so finishers happen much more often could be an interesting change of pace for the assassination spec. vs. other specs.
Shame you can't have Premed+CB. Premed->CB->Deadly throw would be fun.
Incidentally, even without stats, in PvP: Ranged snare + ~600 ranged instant damage >>> something like Striker's Mark.
Remember, thrown weapon damage is pretty high, we have decent ranged attack power. Mine is lke 1194 unbuffed.
What happens if we say "fuck it" to Combat past 33? There's no real incentive for a rogue to bother with Daze anymore unless you're looking at it purely from a team-player perspective(making the warriors HS do more damage). With 8 points to spend, we can polish off Lethality and snag full Vile Poisons + Cold Blood + full Ruthlessness. Or we can fill out Deflection, snag Riposte, and fill out Improved Kick for the utility foursome of Endurance, Improved Sprint, Improved Kick, and Riposte. Subtlety would let you get Improved Feint, 3/5 MoD, and 3/3 Initiative for better pvp openers(though obviously that's the weakest option).
You know, I would kind of enjoy having my skills and talents help out the tank like that. While I like playing a very individualistic class, it'd be novel to have my talents actually work well with the tanks/other rogues to help everyone out, and not in the "token hemo bitch" manner.
The math will say if it's worth it, I suppose, but with a shift to 25-man, it would be nice to find a way to make "contribution to group" outweigh "individual numbers", if just to add to the sense of involvement we have. (Such as 3 rogues specced for group contribution/synergy outweigh/outdamage 3 rogues specced for max individual DPS.) As is, rogues can basically nap through a lot of encounters up until the point of learning at which it's stable enough for DPS to matter, and while part of me loves the sheer lack of stress involved with having only one thing to think about, part of me would really like to put more into/get more out of playing in a group than the class currently does.
Looking at the talents, there does appear to be some synergy - one rogue Hemoing, one rogue keeping up a Find Weakness rotation (assuming Find Weakness is all damage, not just damage from that rogue) using a SF/Mutilate build may not be doing as much personal damage as the SF/AR daggers rogues are doing, but overall they do more than if all rogues were SF/AR. Not to mention possibly dedicating one rogue to Shiv'ing to keep Deadly up reliably, while everyone else uses Instant or Anaesthetic or Mindnumbing, with the Deadly being used to trigger the "if Poisoned" and Disembowel bonuses.
There's potential, at least.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
I would love the option to OT Celandro, but itemization will determine that. What does it take to zero crits? Like 400+ defense? Unless we get a ton of +def/+stam leather, Dodge tanks still seems like playing russian roulette.
You missed the -2% chance to be crit with talents (Slight of Hand). 5.6 - 2 = 3.6 * 25 = +90 def required for 0 crits on level 63s. With level 70 itemization that shouldnt be too hard. But you dont have to be immune to crits to be viable as an offtank for most encounters. The offtanked mobs are sometimes level 60 now for example so youd only need +75. Or you can be ok with 1%crit chance since you can always use your evasion + whateverthenewparryoneis + vanish/cheap shot + 4s spell immunity + preparation to do it again if you get some spike damage or need to prevent a big spell from killing you.
I remember back in EQ when the guild I was in (Povar Triton) used an evasion tank rotation strategy on Yelinak. You could pull agro by sitting with your paladin style bubble on and have 100% immunity to spells + melee. Bards, clerics and warlocks would all rotate in for tanking. It was the most amusing way to kill a boss ever and resulted in nerfs. Apparently killing a boss while only taking a grand total of 60K damage in a 10 minute fight was considered abusive.
Evasion tanking works very well in certain situations and in most offtanking situations works just as well as high ac/def. In situations where the mob is stunnable, its even easier. The talents are there for an offtank rogue to have excellent combo point generation. Im almost tempted to level a rogue myself just to remind me of the good old days.
Actually, there are quite a few things leading to thinking dodge-tanking might be doable.
-4% hit, -2% critically hit, -15% AoE hit, and the big winner here...
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
You missed the -2% chance to be crit with talents (Slight of Hand).
I did, primarily because Blizzards' silly talent calc is down due to massive overload on their servers.
Update: It looks good, the question is, with our now 29% passive threat reduction, can we actually hold agro? Can we get a skill or talent to turn it off?
Looking at the talents, there does appear to be some synergy - one rogue Hemoing, one rogue keeping up a Find Weakness rotation (assuming Find Weakness is all damage, not just damage from that rogue) using a SF/Mutilate build may not be doing as much personal damage as the SF/AR daggers rogues are doing, but overall they do more than if all rogues were SF/AR. Not to mention possibly dedicating one rogue to Shiv'ing to keep Deadly up reliably, while everyone else uses Instant or Anaesthetic or Mindnumbing, with the Deadly being used to trigger the "if Poisoned" and Disembowel bonuses.
There's potential, at least.
That's exactly what I'm hoping. SF+Mutilate sucks, unless the raid gains more from the Find Weakness effect being up that much (Note: SnD, Flourish, etc, would all appear to proc this.) than you lose in not spamming BS, for instance. Sucks obviously enough that this sort of thing would seem to have to be what they're aiming for. 25% daze deep combat? No known use for this, unless the HS bonus a warrior gets is good enough to cost a rogue 5 talent points. (Apart from being nice in PVP, I guess.)
You forgot 4s of 90% spell resistance every 2 minutes, giving you 3 near immunities in a 3 minute fight with preparation. I'm sure they could make a boss where it was near assumed that a warrior with shield wall or a rogue with cloak of shadows on must have agro or you wipe.
My main point is that its obvious that blizzard is trying to do something with the pigeon holing of classes. The reduced raid size + talent changes are giving them a very good opportunity to do something about it. I believe their goal is to have 4 or more tanks per raid with at least 1 warrior, 1 druid, 1 rogue and 1 paladin all speced and geared to tank. Each would be best at some particular type of tanking situation. More specifically, if I were them I would try and balance fights around 1 raid member with each 41 point tree and include fights that were a bit easier if you had that tree
Using the 'what is blizzard thinking' thought process on each tree, you can see that with 3 warriors in a raid, you are going to want at least 1 prot and 1 arms. I dont think they want to encourage the bring 10 warriors to every raid mentality.
You missed the -2% chance to be crit with talents (Slight of Hand).
I did, primarily because Blizzards' silly talent calc is down due to massive overload on their servers.
Update: It looks good, the question is, with our now 29% passive threat reduction, can we actually hold agro? Can we get a skill or talent to turn it off?
You missed the -2% chance to be crit with talents (Slight of Hand).
I did, primarily because Blizzards' silly talent calc is down due to massive overload on their servers.
Update: It looks good, the question is, with our now 29% passive threat reduction, can we actually hold agro? Can we get a skill or talent to turn it off?
If you are tanking something like the bug spawns on Fankriss, your combo point generation should be extremely high from initiative. Might be enough to make up for the 29% passive threat reduction. An ability to turn off the threat reduction would help or maybe just add hate to hemo equal to the bonus damage it does (14 * 30 = 420 bonus hate).
Tangent: Initiative seems to be Blizzard's answer to the rage gen warriors get from incoming damage.
You missed the -2% chance to be crit with talents (Slight of Hand).
I did, primarily because Blizzards' silly talent calc is down due to massive overload on their servers.
Update: It looks good, the question is, with our now 29% passive threat reduction, can we actually hold agro? Can we get a skill or talent to turn it off?
If you are tanking something like the bug spawns on Fankriss, your combo point generation should be extremely high from initiative. Might be enough to make up for the 29% passive threat reduction. An ability to turn off the threat reduction would help or maybe just add hate to hemo equal to the bonus damage it does (14 * 30 = 420 bonus hate).
Tangent: Initiative seems to be Blizzard's answer to the rage gen warriors get from incoming damage.
I will be the first one to sign up for Rogue Tank, believe me. I love the Instructor because I get my only chance to tank. But there are a couple of gaps, most of which come down to predictability for healers.
1) Consistant vs. Unpredicable Damage: Armor, Block and Shield Wall are 'consistant mitigation' which healers love. In leather, with no shield, damage is still going to be spiky. Dodge, Dodge, Dodge, 3k, 3k, 3k, Dead. Oops, rogue down, somebody pick up the lose mob.
2) Spell damage:
* Cloak of Shadows is still 10% to take full damage. Still rolling the dice. One bad roll on the shadowflame still kills you.
* Enveloping Shadows is still 85% chance to take full damage.
3) Threat generation: Paladins have a skill to increase their threat generation. We need a way as well, especially considering passive threat generation for us is -29% now. Give us a poison that turns off passive threat reduction.
4) Snap agro: Less of an issue i think if we are in an Offtank role\
5) Itemization: All of this is completely moot if we don't get leather with high armor (i.e. NecroKnight's Garb for starters), defense and stamina.
Enveloping shadows could be rewritten as -15% damage on all AoE effects, and it would be much better for consistancy.
Would Cloak of Shadows be overpowered if it was 90% damage reduction (i.e. consistancy).
08/28/06, 3:41 PM
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