Yeah, Hemo and Seal Fate actually do have their place in end game raiding, especially with very dynamic encounters (read: you'll be switching targets a lot). While lacking the raw white dps of Combat, the combo point building aspects of our "PvP" builds lend themselves to battles where we're always switching targets or are constantly backing out of melee range (Emps and try Chromag with a SF or Hemo spec, you'll destroy everyone else. And encounters that have a mix like Noth, you can hold your own as well). I venture to guess level 70 raiding is going to be more of the same with the style of Naxx, so while you may get outclassed on new encounters like Patchwerk, your class leaders will likely see the value of your tremendously well controlled stuns on Gothik, Frankriss adds type encounters. It does start to mirror the niceties of the warrior class in raids, having 2-3 prot tanks 2-3 hybrid and 2-3 fury for different encounter needs. It's too bad they have to design encounters to give us utility, instead of the other way around.

You may find yourself in a 5 rogue roster come level 70 raiding, where some of you are spec'd dps and some are spec'd "utility", and you sit out accordingly. Who knows.

For a 41pt talent, I'm not sure how selective "plenty" sounds? If you've spec'd for mutilate, you're going to be using it exclusively. Same goes for the passive SA trait. Just saying, you should be able to Shadowstep > Cheapshot >Hemo(+20%) given the "theme" of the subtlety tree.

I'm really looking at this build actually, for PvP and Arena battling

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=ihZhbxdrZE0ss0hRkxst :3/17/41
It lacks a real crit burst damage and reliable damage generation, but you trade that in exchange for literally gobs of PvP utility, imp sprint, imp kick, and riposte from combat, as well as most of the goodies from the subtlety tree. With the addition of shadowstep to the tree, you finally have a good way of adding serious burst damage with imp ambush, shadowstep, and oppo, while at the same time your hemo will literally hit like a ton of bricks with all that AP and Agi scaling, and honestly hemo isn't really a crit based build.

Lack of relentless strikes is going to hurt, but I think in a constant group PvP setting you're going to be a lot more about low point finishers and then weaving back out of the fight to regen, rather than worrying about getting that proc from a 5pt anything.

Not entirely sure about the imp ambush, I could just as easily aim a bit more defensive and then lose a smidgen of burst, but I guess thats a balancing act you need to choose yourself.

Key ability though: gouge, restealth, shadowstep, ambush. ownage?

It's funny that someone was commenting on being 'spoiled' by the white damage of CD is PvP. It's just a style adjustment to get used to. It's the exact opposite going from 31/8/12, as I did, to 21/0/30 that I am now.

I do love my current Hemo spec but it also requires more time 'on target' (But still far less than a combat build of course).

SF daggers is the opposite and very strong for that reason. You open, burst them down a bit, gouge and then run (or wait while you regen before KS-burst again). With no energy, SF Daggers is lame since the white damage sucks. But that means you can get out of dangerous close quarters, regen up for a few secs and come in for another pass. To this end, yellow damage dagger builds are FAR more mobile than white damage ones, which is where their strength lies in PvP. You lose much less when someone blinks (for example) with a yellow build than with a white one, because every second away from them you're regenerating for another burst (vs. missing out on white damage). The CP generation of SF also complements this perfectly...

You should've tried it for more than a week :P

I'm quite looking forward to trying everything from 46/0/15 to 30/0/31 or 31/0/30. They should give 1cp respecs for the first month at 70 !

That's actually a pretty valid request (reduced respec cost). I recognize why they are doing it in the beta, but if Blizz is also viewing tBC release as a basic 'reset' for everyone it would logically make sense to give at least a few cheap respecs to let all the non-beta testers try stuff out.

I know in just playing around w/ my CD>Hemo>CF>hemo over the last week+ has been 150g. Fortunately I've made out like a bandit from major mana pot sales, but still, 50g+re-learning spells is a tough pill to swallow.

Well, there should be a PTR coming up soon to test out patch 1.X, so there people could try out lots of specs (although only 51 point specs, but it should be enough).

Ouch. I hope they removed the 10 energy cost also then. It really just seems unnecissary anyways.

Wow, now it's even more still-not-worth-giving-up-cold-blood-for :P

I think 21/0/40 is going to be pretty frickin' sweet though.

I've been playing around in the beta for a couple of days now.

I was really excited to try a shadowstep ambush/wep switch/hemo build for leveling. I tried this:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...30301113501051

I didn't like it at all. I liked that my attack power went from 900->1100 and my crit stayed high, but the build seemed weak. Half the time shadowstep teleports you inside the mob, breaking stealth. The rest of the time is a tossup to see whether you get the ambush off in time or the mob moves out of range. My CotBD hemo CRITS were hitting for about 500 on lvl 60 mobs - they felt incredibly weak. Opening with ambush meant I also took more damage building combo points for a 5pt KS.

Next I tried a mutilate build:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000

I really, really liked this build for grinding. I used dual deadly poison. Camo allows me to move to the mobs quickly without shadowstep, and I opened with CS and mut. The mob was usually poisoned for the first mut just from the inital autoattacks. 4-5 pt KS, then 2 muts killed most mobs. If they survived the second mut a 5 pt (cold blood) evis hits just after the KS stun wears off. Using harbinger and Perd I felt like my mutilates hit pretty hard, and the combo point generation is just fantastic. I was killing lots of lvl 62 mobs without taking a hit. Damage breakdown was ~35% mut, ~35% melee, 15% deadly poison (wow), and the rest evicerate.

Mutilate might not do the raid damage of combat daggers but I think it will be the best dagger leveling/grinding spec, hands down. I imagine it will also be very nice for PvP (after moving a couple talent points around), though I haven't tried it yet.

edit: spelling

I don't know if the maths is right, but there's a thread about the Arena lvl 70 rewards on the official forums, the rogue-usable one handers of which are now all 2.6 speed.

Essentially it works out that they're as good as the craftable lowest tier Blacksmith Hammer for Hemo and considerably worse than the 5-man craftable one.

Doh! For Hemo rogues (surely the prevelant Arena spec!)

Yeah, honestly seeing the new BoP item for alchemy as that really crappy +healing pot trinket, with some other random stats (whoopee some agi and str and stam!) I will very likely go and grind up bsmithing right before the xpac hits, and go hammersmith and then aim for the BOP hammer. Nice proc, good damage, excellent speed, etc. Also it means I can get that dirge plan, and make the offhand too :)

the final epic one is a 40 man quest reward, the 5 man is the middle upgrade one which has similar dps etc to the arena mace. but a better MH speed, Id link you it on thotbot but its down currently :(

It makes sense...hemo would have been rediculously overpowered when rogues unbuffed AP reaches 1300+ and buffed 2000+

Do you have ANY idea what you're talking about, or are you just making shit up at this point?

He's right.

There are 3 Hammer tiers.

First tier (BoE reqs only) is equivalent for Hemo to the lvl70 arena one, second needs 5-man BOP items and is better, third needs a 25-man BOP item and is outrageously better (but is T5 as you mention.).

To clarify:

Drakefist: 153-285, 81.1dps 2.7spd
Dragonmaw: 166-320, 88.1dps 2.7spd
Dragonstrike: 179-334, 95dps, 2.7spd

Arena 1H: 168-298, 88.1dps, 2.6spd

Now, I've never been a good enough theorycrafter for doing spreadsheets of this, but I understood from this post I read, that the Drakefist was about equivalent to the Arena 1H sword/mace/fist for Hemoing. Worse dps, sure, but 0.1 slower makes up for that for things like PvP, where how hard your Hemos hit is much more important than your white damage (and PvP being what the Arena weapons are supposedly for). And of course that 0.1 gets more significant as the Deadliness powered group buffs of your Arena team stack up.

Then compare the Dragonmaw (5-man BOP powered) to the Arena 1H (supposed T4 equivalent). It's clearly superior in every way (though the Arena weapon does have much better passive stats).

Why?

Personally I think it's crazy that there are no Arena 1Hers at 2.8 available. Even the Mace is 2.6.
If they want to Normalise Hemo, just do it. Don't pussyfoot around the issue by removing 2.8 weapons from the game entirely. It's ridiculous.

(Not to mention of course that faster weapons are worse for Sinister Striking too, at the same dps, since they still hit less hard than the equivalent slower weapons).

He's not making up shit.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...05735&sid=1#23

The current best blacksmithing weapons in TBC will not be made until players are well into the Tier 5 raid instances. The arena rewards will be bumped up to that level after the first season.

Just read all Kalgan's recent post and don't see this mentioned?

Even if true- that's even more frustrating. No weapons slower than 2.6 in the game anymore?

*cuddles his AQR*

It's in the very first quote he references.

Not a direct statement, but clearly implied.

That was talking about the Arena reward sword still being 2.8, while the fist/mace had been changed to 2.6.

Oh, my bad. >.>

Right. I want proof that the mats for the 88 dps crafted ones come from 5 mans and not 10 or 25 man entry level raids, and that the tier up comes from a '40 man quest' as the guy put it. That's the part I'm calling bullshit on.

http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=8077
"Tier 2" 1h Mace. Primal Nethers currently drop from Heroic 5man (end?)bosses. They may well drop from 10/25mans as well but they've been dropping in 5mans (bottom of the page for Primal Nether) for the people on Beta.