Rogue Passive DND got updated to 29% in 1.12(from 20) so that you end up with the same net threat reduction when under Blessing of Salvation. Horde rogues just got 9% free threat. :)

Who knows. There is a heck of a lot of mitigation stuff in the subtlety tree now though. If they want us in an OT role, they would need to make some small changes though.

If warriors are awesome tanks, and good DPS, would it be game breaking if rogues were awesome DPS and good tanks?

Some of those new talents are interesting indeed but... in order to actually get that last, 41 point talent, you have to give up all else. For example, right now you can get 31 points in Combat tree, half of Assassination tree and still some in Subtlety tree. But if you'd put 41 points into, say, Assassination you have only 20 left for both other trees...

Will the "best DPS" spec be again the kind of boring spec - most of the Combat tree and some mid-tree talents from Assassination to reinforce it?

It really depends on your definition of tank

Rogue tanking with evasion + preparation has been in the game since release. Im certainly not saying make rogues the best tank or the best offtank, but they could be the highest damage when tanking with reasonable total healing needed numbers.

1) Yes.. thats why rogues are best in offtank role where its closer to 1k hits 2k crits or lots of tiny hits for 50 (fankriss bugs). Blizzard fight design will determine whether is workable. Think of the number of fights in AQ20 or ZG where rogues could offtank. Its pretty high.
2) 90% avoidance + 20% chance of cheating death + 4% spell miss= 96% chance of avoidance? +15% avoid aoe = over 100%? Enough to prevent shadow flame completely?
3) Poison would be the most elegant solution. Maybe 2 versions, a +threat one and a +taunt proc one?
4) agreed
5) Jewelcrafting anyone? I think its fine to have +dodge and +agi gear for rogues. trinkets/rings/necklaces/jewelcrafting would fill in the gaps

I'm having trouble coming up with a lvl70 build that I'm emphatic over. Let alone the lvl 60 stuff we'll be able to play around with day one.

My warlock, OTOH, I'm getting very excited about.

EDIT: Sealing the deal would be an implementation of the "rogue tank" concept. Not a very cheap 'experiment' when you're talking about an 80-90% chance of not getting insta-gibbed with your ilvl90 epics (anyone else wonder what a repair bot '95% durability fix' will cost at that ilvl).

Deadly throw looks awesome with or without stats on thrown weapons... mutilate looks decent but for a 41 ptr i dunno... its dmg will be significantly lower than backstabs so all it has is that extra CB.. sub tree looks good, again its 41 ptr seems a little weak but still fairly strong..

Combats 41 pt is stupid and unless the expansion is populated entirely by the equiv of stratholmes neutral ghosts i cant see the point in putting that POS in what is suposed to be the rogues 'pure dps tree'

disembowl either needs to significantly scale better than evisc from AP or it needs to benefit from talents...

Rogue mitigation is still subject to RNG to much to make us good tanks for more than the duration of evasion imo.

Overall i think they did a decent job.. new skills are good, talents in ass/com are a little lackluster but for this early in beta i guess its not to bad.

hai2u?
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000

See what I mean when I say MEH.

Now, warlocks:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...01000000000000
(edit: meant the fixed link)

An intercepting MSing cleaving pet that can be SL'd? GOGOGOGO. The only thing I'm not 100% clear on (b/c I've had work to do) is: can we get those 41st talent points immediately upon release of TBC, or do they have level requirements strapped to them...

Immediately. Levelling a new main should be considerably less of a pain.

No level requirements on new talents - nor are they locked out for those who don't opt for xpac. Everyone can (and will) grab 41 point talents on launch day.

Blue post link: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...23139&sid=1#22

while that SF/combat dagger build is sick im kinda sad that of all the builds ive seen so far that one looks the most impressive.. and involves only 1 new talents.. thats pretty bad =/

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000

?

And rogues don't have these minor things called intercept and charge. Your point?

DW spec would shit all over Find Weakness, solly

Oh well. I'm swords, and I think I'm really fucked.

I am a glutton for punishment, so I consolidated my Rogue Tank thoughts and posted them to the WoW Forums ( http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...302817&sid=1#0 ) in the hopes of getting the last few items out there for discussion.

And when is stealth useful in a raid environment beyond gimicks like the suppression roome. It could be argued that right now warriors are great tanks, and great DPS at the same time, so that there is no trade off. This looks to change in the expansion though based on what my Fury warriors friends are telling me.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000


I had this build in mind for Combat swords. Seems decent enough.


Edit- Reason behind master poisoner is due to the new finsher. They seem to be phasing out Evis with the expansion.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000

?

The thing that intrigues me is get a CP on a target, hit SnD (still counts as a finisher to proc find weakness, right?), then get backstab > tea > backstab > KS - thus stacking the imp KS + find weakness. All while having a warlock get his immol incinerate conflag going.

LOL?

Just few random thoughts...

-Sealfate+combat dagger build will again face the same problem... opportunity in subtlety tree.

-Surprise attack is just bad. If you backstab 50 times during a 5 min fight, and dodge 5% of them, you will gain ~25 extra energy by this talent. I'm sorry but... Not to mention the hit table issue. Unless they revamping the whole system, this talent is utterly useless.

-Blade twisting would work good with the old shadow strikes. But now it just seems to be at the wrong spot.

-A pure 41 point combat build doesn't seem to gain anything in dps department *at all*. I look forward to 175% BS modifier (if it's even true), but that's all i seem to gain.

-Can't see mutilate being on par with backstab unless they add it to lethality and make disembowel scale really good with AP. If not, i don't see the point of this finisher at all heh. Damage isn't much different from eviscerate or am i missing something? Not to mention it needs Deadly Poison to be on target all the time. In case they buff mutilate a bit (add it to lethality etc.) can a sealfate+mutilate build outdps combat daggers now? Who knows... I don't know how good Disembowel scales with AP, but with mutilate you can more or less throw a 5 point finisher every 10-14 sec and gain the 10% bonus from 'find weakness'.

Overall, the combat tree isn't that exciting. Assassination and subtlety look pretty good though. Too bad as a raiding rogue all i really cared about was the combat tree.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000

Seal Fate + Multilate

Keep up Slice and Dice and toss in constant Disembowels, with Shiv as necessary to keep Deadly Poison up. It could almost keep full uptime on Find Weakness, which is more appealing to me than the end Combat talents.

Anyone done the math on Deadliness + Sinister Calling? Would the bonus stats for a raiding rogue be enough to keep them ahead/on par with the pure DPS talents in the other trees (my gut instinct is going with no)?

Blade Twisting works great with new Heroic Strike. My 41 combat sword self Shivs a few times, making your Mutilate crit more, meaning Find Weakness is up more. (Which is either a self-buff or a target debuff, which would be neato-keen.) Assuming that, all damage goes up. My Shiv/Deadly usage makes all of our Disembowels hit harder. Someone's spamming Hemo w/ 10% more agi and 10% more AP.

Individual possible losses making for possible net gains in raid DPS. They're either intending things to work this well together between specs, or it's the weirdest coincidence I've seen in a while, and I'm completely up a tree.


We'll see. Lord knows I wouldn't mind more involvement than watching a DM. Lord also knows I'm very very good at being incredibly, utterly, remarkably wrong.

After a few hours of thinking on it, these talents still all look like existing specs with just more talent points spend -- none of the new stuff is exciting enough in and of itself. Playing around with the talent calculator keeps giving me my current 16/12/23 spec with ten extra points in one of the trees; nothing new, just more of what's already there -- the rogue review changes excited me more.