Something seems very wrong with this thread. When opening it by clicking the "52" page number, I can't see below Valen's "Has anyone got a list of new class buffs that can improve rogues melee damage done?" post. Only if I click the "Last Post" link does the rest of the thread show up. Is this happening for anyone else?

(double post)

Yep. Same for me.

Yes, and yes.

But I left daggers behind when I left UBRS, so I was testing with FoF, Bonescrapper and the lowest level white dagger I could find.

If I got my maths right, it seemed to average out that Mutilate was normalised (Bonescrapper doing much more than in theory it should do).

I dont' get that, maybe you need to clean out your browser of old files.

To the thread, Multilate is normalized, if you don't want that normalization, you have to use Hemo.

Has anyone had a chance to test Envenom with more than a couple of rogues? Since we now get our own stacks, is there any way to identify which stack is yours? If you have 5cps waiting, how do you know whether you've got 5 deadly's stacked? I suppose you could keep a close eye on your combat log, but was wondering if there was something I was missing.

While technically true, an alternative is to activate SCT-D and watch the DP ticks. Not perfect (if you wanted to envenom the *instant* you hit a 5 DP stack) - but should suffice absent any other clarification.

I imagine if Envenom really takes off (and it should, it crits like a bitch), someone will code up a combatlog watcher that just gives you a green light to Envenom as soon as you hit 5 stacks of DP. If you could tweak it to give you a green light at different stacks (if a 3pt'er works better with your cycle, for example), then it'd be pretty nifty.

Would be interesting if not only the damage but also the crit rate tied into your stack #. When you say it crits like a bitch, what is the crit rate based on?

Would also be cool if it was affected by Vile Poisons. Though I'm sure that'd be pretty OP, given that 5/5 VP increases poison damage by 20%. Heh.

Vile poison does increase the envenom damage by 20% at the moment if you mean that.

Regarding crits, i can't explain it but envenom crits alot for me too.

Yes, I did mean that, and no I did not know that. Holy shit. That's huge. Base damage that compares w/ evis but is unaffected by armor, and you can boost it by 20% ....

Are you aware of anyone who has parsed envenom damage? Sounds like a worthwhile effort.

I'm at work and trying to figure out OH energy generation with CP. What is the formula for weapon speed as it's affected by haste effects? I realize it's posted somewhere but I can't find it right now.

Edit: I think I found it. Is this the correct formula?
Weapon speed/(weapon speed * Haste effect)*(haste effect) ie. 1.8/(1.8*.3)(.2) ?

It's easier to just remember that haste increases the amount of attacks generated, rather than try and mess with the speed. If you try to generate a number for swings/second, you wind up with:

(1/weaponspeed)*(haste1)*(haste2)...*(hasteN)

E.G., (1/1.8)*1.3*1.2 for the number of swings per second of a 1.8 speed weapon during SnD/BF both being up.

So I'm still 67. Some thoughts.

With MSAand a 60dps mace from TBC my boring old combat build seems far and away the best for grinding. Still. I've tried various Hemo builds(playing with a Hemo/AR build now) and the damage output just doesn't seem to keep up. I just dumped the extra points into assassination and got like 2/5 SF.

With a 62dps 1.7spd dagger + Pugio for grinding mutilate seemed to work out better than Shadowstep build. Except on casters. Shadowstep destroys casters.

Overall the same old combat build we've all been using for almost 2 years now seems to come out ahead with my current gear. Daggers make for *some* much faster fights, but are less reliable. And even with BF/AR in a dagger build it lacks the brute force of a mace/sword build. I can walk into three or four +/-2 lvl mobs and be completely confident that I will win the fight no problem.

Maybe if I had a Maexx fang level dagger(fuck that greedy bitch) it would be a different story and the raw burst damage would outweigh the brute force of the mace build. At least if you are careful and pick all single targets.

I haven't played with AR/Prep build much, just screwed around a little with it. Should be fun but it will lack the sustained DPS of the same old build also.

I come out fairly disappointed with our new talents. Shadowstep is fun, but outside PVP that is all it is really. Mutilate is cool but I doubt it will come out ahead of combat for raw damage in the end. And the poison requirement is frustrating beyond belief. Either use Deadly and make gouging to actually land mutilate a PITA, or use crippling and waste a lot of potential damage. It's not a *huge* issue, but it is annoying and arbitrary. I have to play with Combat Potency more, I like it but for raiding it requires some wasted points that might be more efficient elsewhere.

Have only done one night of arena play. It was fun to watch. It might have been fun to play but I could never get close enough to melee, no matter how close I appeared to be. Shadowstep > spambush stationary target. OOR OOR OOR. Was way too frustrated, will hafta go back and try again. Did a few days of world PVP(Halaa) and it was much more satisfying simply due to the lack of crippling lag/desyncing.

In the end I'm afraid everyone is going to end up with the same spec for level 70 raiding just like now. Shift a couple points from daggers to swords or maces depending on your weapon of choice. 2 in WEX if not mace. And get Seal Fate/Cold Blood on top. Nice to have those for sure, but they are not new and every other class will be enjoying new talents from what I can tell.

I have wondered for some time now, if they are going to rework surprise attacks...as it stands now, you might take it, if you are going to snatch combat potency...unless you are dagger, in which case 16/40/5 is much stronger imho.

Imho they should shit heap SA and instead introduce a talent like Ambidexterity: requires 40 points in combat and 5 point in dual wield: increases your offhand damage by another 50 %.

At the moment there is no real reason to really want to reach the ultimate of a tree. Rather you take if, you are going to spend 40 points anyway.

It really seems like alot of the new talents are much more PVP-centric. Can you be any more specific about mutilate in PVP? you really seemed to gloss over it. The poison issue is easy to get around... you just use envenom to remove poison or shiv to put it on. thats nearly 100% control.

If you mean me, I didn't try Mutilate in PVP just grinding and a little in grouping. I'm probably going to switch back to it at 68 just for a change of pace. Have a working damage meter now so I can see how it compares in group play a little better at least.

As for CD build, maybe I missed newer math in the thread somewhere but last I saw SA was not a great damage bump. Leading me to believe that 30/31 would come out ahead due to the extra poison damage and greatly increased CP generation. And no wasted points on superfluous stuff like blade twisting/kick/whatever you use to get to 35 in combat. This is just instinct and almost 3 years of playing a rogue talking though, not math. Please someone show me the numbers so I can be confused=)

As with Valen, unfortunately I can't refer you to any precise mechanic that determines the Envenom crit rate. But across a typical 5 man run, you will see a lot more 1800-1900 5cp Envenom crits than you'd expect.

It definitely won't replace Eviscerate permanently because of the dependancy on DP, but it adds an interesting layer to rogue finishing as you now have SnD, Evis and Envenom to consider throughout a fight, even if Envenom may get tricky to work with when there's multiple rogues in the raid.

Predicated on what though? Int? Spell crit gear? If the parses prove out that envenom crits *more*, it really wouldn't make much sense. Unless of course blizzard tweaked with the formula hoping that someone would game envenom crits to see what people could theoretically max them at.

To be honest, that's my guess - they bumped the crit rate so people would test it out more on beta. Afterall it IS a new mechanic.

Tier 4 set bonuses were just put in.
2 piece: Your Feint ability costs 10 less energy.
4 piece: Your critical strikes on finishing moves have a 50% chance to grant you a combo point.

Theres always outdoor raid bosses.
:ninja:

Without running any numbers, those look pretty dumb. I guess they are designed primarily for PvE use, but still... ugh.