The constant linking of DMs is all about epeen, but your ability to pump out DPS is very relevant and DMs are simply a measurement of your ability to perform your DPS role. DMs are a player invention sure, but it's merely displaying relevant information, not creating some kind of true minigame. The ability to output pure damage is all that is relevant to a pure DPS class. If a rogue can't out DPS everyone on pure terms on a single, stationary boss then there is something wrong.

First of all, as was mentioned, cheapshot is 40 energy talented. Second of all, as was also mentioned, you are forgetting about the 10% 6 second damage boost. You are also forgetting about premeditation which givesy ou 2 combo points right off the bat every 2 minutes. Top that off with typical white damage hits on 65.4 dps weapons that crit for anything between 400-1000 on mian hand and 200-500 on offhand on average.

Also, I am running around with a 30% crit chance at the moment, and have more than 4 pieces of bonescythe which's bonus is +5 energy on all critical hits. So 30% of my hemo attacks typicaly cost 30 energy which factors in an extra hemo before a tick if i pull off a crit.

By the time cheapshot wears off, I'm almost always under 20% of a typical beta mob's hp so far (just entered terrokar forest after clearing all of hellfire/most of zanga)

You are correct, that's basicaly what I meant... My wording of "burst damage" was probably misleading. You build up combo points faster, and basicaly can fit in more finishers. So your cp usage is much more optimised. That's why I think hemo shines so much for me in most of these encounters.

In the end, I'm not trying to justify a build better than another one or say there is one ultimate way. I am merely trying to shed some light on some misconceptions alot of people seem to have about this build. No its not the ultimate sustained PVE tank and spank spec. Yes it is more than viable in a raiding environment since there arent that many tank and spank fights and the damage output is quite generous not counting the added utility and pvp fun. In the end it comes to personnal preference and what spec fits you the most depending what your playstyle typicaly is.

PS: as an example, I am typicaly ahead combat/SS combat rogues on fights like twin emps, chromagus, nefarian, noth, gluth, thaddius etc...

After Panthro's comments on the Mutilate build, I tried it out with Perds/Stalker's Fang, and I've gotta say, for smooth grinding this beat combat swords (AQR/Mala) by quite a distance. It's almost as if the build was specifically designed for questing/grinding, because all the extra bonuses are direct benefits as well. With Imp Poisons you virtually always have a DP stack on after a CS, Imp KS and Find Weakness boost your damage, with SF you hit 5pts nearly every time, and Imp Evis means you regularly see Evis crits upwards of 2k. Speedy Recovery then helps your Cannibalize and Bandage Ticks to get you back on the road. And it goes without saying that constantly having Remorseless up is gorgeous with this build. You tend to drop mobs in around 6 seconds or so with a CS - DP - Mutilate - KS - Mutilate - Evis cycle, and with Naxx Daggers I can't see any other builds coming close to the sheer grinding efficiency this one has.

It doesn't compete with combat swords (or daggers) in instances, but in terms of solo questing/grinding, Mutilate is definitely the build I'm going with in retail.

Just tried Mutilate at 60 on the PTRs and was very disappointed. Yes I don't have GM weapons, and yes Perds+CHT isn't that great. I have a GG Ripper banked, with +4 dmg enchant, and tried with Perds+that which is slightly better.... but still... compared to my AQR hemoing it felt really weak. Quite apart from the fact that I get Prep + tons of other goodies with Hemo.

The fact it costs 60 energy and often only does 400 dmg is a bit crazy. Quite apart from the fact that all the numbers that have been run assume crazy things like 1000AP and 30% crit. Which is more like a raid buffed assassination rogue. I have mostly T2, some T2.5 and some ZG bits and I have about 1030 AP and 26% crit with a Hemo build. For Mutilate though I have maybe 840AP and 25% crit, and with that setup it's just too weak.

Yes with Imp KS, Find Weakness and Poisons on, it's respectable but that's just too many pre-reqs. In everything from Arena PvP to Raid PvE it's tough to keep all the relevant debuffs up. It's cool to learn a new style, but it also really limits your flexibility. I can't help but think that a flat out 31/8/12 Seal Fate/Backstab build wouldn't be considerably better- at 60 at least.

As a final incidentally, Cold Blood is currently causing Mutilate double-crits, which I don't think it was before...

I pvp'ed with mutilate in arena yesterday and I found it pretty decent, but need more time with it to see its real value and also need to face some more decent players.

With 1100ap (with rentaki / pvp trinkets) and 28% crit I found the damage pretty decent and double crits more often than I expected.

On a mage in t3/t2.5 it did about 1750 and the highest I had in the arena was around 21xx. Twice in a row I was left 1v1 with warriors and it was very very easy to win with mutilate.

I wasn't spec'ed imp expose (but I will respec to that I think) but getting 5cp for expose was so easy and then jumping out to get a little energy, then back in with evasion up, mutilate (at this point you have 3/4cp) and ks for +19% dmg followed by mutilate renataki mutialte cb evic.

Think I saw a MH mutilate on exposed warrior for 11xx, all in all a very fun spec for the arena at least.

I probably need to try it again :)

I used to be die hard daggers but now I've tried Hemo it's hard to go back. In the Arena being able to use Prep EVERY time is insanely powerful...

The other thing that worries me is how essential Renataki's Charm Of Trickey is for Mutilate, or even Backstab/SF builds in arena type scenarios. I have a Renataki's, and it's awesome, but I also know I'm one of only a handful on my server with them. Which is why I thought Connivery (see OP) was probably real. If it's not then... well... it's a bit unfair on rogues who cant get groups to farm the Edge for a month, just for them.

I understand this. Yet it's not clear that Kalgan was referring to DM. He didn't say, for example, "Mages are sustaining the highest DPS against single stationary targets in typical TBC raid encounters, they are ROCKING the DamageMeters!"

Big difference. Let's just see what happens.

Not a difference.

When kalgan comes and posts "Hey you guys do top dps in tbc, even against single target!" it doesn't mean pvp or burst dps in my eyes.

Basically that mages with CDs had the best burst dps is nothing new.

Actually I tried speccing combat for Sapphiron and KT and almost immediately specced back to hemo.

For Sappiron I actually did more damage as hemo thanks to being able to spam hemos and evisc while he is in the air. On KT combat did slightly higher personal damage thanks to the offhand damage, if I was one of the dodging rogues this wouldnt be the case.

Once you figure in the ~210-300 extra damage from each hemo that the raid does in debuff damage and for raid dps the first hemo rogue outdamages combat. This is a human rogue with nax armor, 2.8+ delay weapons, full atk buffs etc. A non-human doesn't do so good. After the WS nerf hemo probably won't be an option anymore.

?

WS should mean weapon skill, however I am not sure why that would hurt Hemo builds. Since weapon skill would be less useful, not having the WS talent in the sub tree shouldn't make a difference.

Just looking at some of your builds, are you guys seriously considering keeping WE? I have been going back and forth for the last few days and i really don't see the point in putting those two points there. Since i do have a Fist that i do farm and SS with from time to time, i was thinking of just dumping those 2 points in Fist spec and calling it a day.

I know putting 2 points in fist spec is pretty much waste of points, but isn't WE a waste of points also? Maybe i am missing.

Aah, weapon skill. Griz is a human rogue, so that's probably where he's coming from. However seeing as how every combat build is getting hit with that nerf stick, how would it disproportionately effect hemo? It will disproportionately effect humans, sure, so that's probably what he meant with that statement.

The only upside to WS is that it scales as you level, unlike crit rating. If they don't plan on increasing the bonus on the talent, it still seems pretty poor though. I read somewhere that the hungering cold is something like +13 wep skill now, so if the rogue talent gets scaled up to something like +10/20 for the 2 points, it should remain a decent raiding talent.

So, even if doubled, it would be around a scaling 1% crit versus picking up Blade Twisting? Or even imp kick? Dunno, I think I can set aside a little bit more damage for a little more utility, assuming you can daze a good deal of Naxx adds.

I didn't mean that hemo had a particular disadvantage or advantage on that fight; I meant that as an index of where we are in progression.

It's the same argument I've heard over and over - if, if, if, if all these conditions are met, hemo might keep up. For 99% of the population, the conditions aren't met, and it doesn't.

Hmm, you may be right. I haven't actually installed the beta, but from what I had been told, it always scales to creatures that are above you in level, rather than your level. Ie, it has the same effect % wise on a lvl 68 mob when you're 65 as it would on a 73 mob when you're 70. I'm too sure though, so someone could clear that up if it hasn't been discussed already.

I will not be picking up WE at any point in TBC as long as weapon skill rating gives the bonus it gives now. The small increase in damage doesn't justify 2 points in a 25 tier talent. I will probably put those two points in any of the more pvp oriented talents.

I am still banking on some changes to deep combat before the expansion hits. Relentless strikes being comparable to our deep combat talents is disturbing to say the least.

As long as hemo as a raiding build is being discussed, i'll just throw in here that for giggles I respec'd as 30/21 with maces. I ended up below the combat rogues and over the hemo rogue (all of them have vastly superior gear to me) on boss fights, though for the night as a whole I ended up top dps raid-wide (I didnt cruise-control last night). I'll forgoe SF in favor of combat potency in xpac, but it's a nice little change up for now, getting used to having extra combo points, which is what combat potency will do as well indirectly.

1) I would not bank on changes to our talents before the expansion hits. If anything changes, they should boost +skill up a little bit more than it is currently. It is not the best option itemization wise for rogues as Kalgan stated he wanted it to be, right now agi > skill > crit/hit.

2) Relentless strikes is not comparable to our deep combat talents. Our deep combat talents are not near that good.

Post expansion it will be more like:

agi > crit/hit > str > int > a rabbit > horseshoe > skill

I'm pretty sure all the math i've done shows that +skill will be more valuable than +crit/hit item budget wise. That is to say that +10 skill rating > +10 crit/hit rating. Its just that +10 skill rating costs the same as +10agi, meaning that +agi and +ap will be more valuable than +skill for higher level mobs, which, I believe, is not inline with the dev's desired power. For higher level mobs, I believe they want +skill > +agi/ap > +crit/hit > +str. Since this is not the case, I believe +skill will be looked at further and changed to make it better.