Now its Surprise Strike:
10 Energy z cooldown (10s?) A surprise attack that deals 1xx (~125%?) weapon damage. Only usable after an is dodged, missed, or parried.
Causes next y (3?) attacks to be automatically critical.
Just a random idea.
I don't even know how good it would be, but it'd be fun to play with.
Gives alot of preference to swords over daggers. I would like to see a vanilla attack, based off attack power (good for either build).
Surprise Attack
Energy Cost: X
Cooldown: 20 seconds
Uses all of the rogues current energy, dealing X% Attack power in damage (where X the amount of energy used). The critical strike rate of this ability increases by 5% for each combo point currently on the target. Generates no combo points or threat.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
Considering both the assassination 41 point talent and subtlety 41 point talent (I laff at this one) favor daggers, what is wrong with the combat one favoring swords?
I am not really being serious, but there is an obvious bias of the designers towards daggers already.
Face it, the only decent 41 point talent so far is Mutilate, a dagger spec talent. Both of our other 41 talents suck currently and need a big time overhaul.
Vitality (3 minute cooldown)
Instant
20 second duration
Increases the rogues strength, agility, and stamina by 15% and causes the rogue to heal 1% of his total life per second for the duration of the ability.
Deadened Nerves
pt 1)7% chance to resist fear, seduction and stunning effects. 2% chance to reflect these effect upon the attacker.
pt 2)15% chance to resist fear, seduction and stunning effects. 4% chance to reflect these effects upon the attacker.
Blade Twisting
pt 1)5% chance that critical strikes with your abilities backstab and sinister strike abilities cause the target to bleed, taking an additional 10% damage over 6 seconds.
pt 2)10% chance that critical strikes with your abilities backstab and sinister strike abilities cause the target to bleed, taking an additional 10% damage over 6 seconds.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
Considering both the assassination 41 point talent and subtlety 41 point talent (I laff at this one) favor daggers, what is wrong with the combat one favoring swords?
I am not really being serious, but there is an obvious bias of the designers towards daggers already.
Face it, the only decent 41 point talent so far is Mutilate, a dagger spec talent. Both of our other 41 talents suck currently and need a big time overhaul.
Subtlety arguably has favored swords for a long time (hemo) and still does for anything beyond the opening shot. Assasination I agree. Not sure why they choose to make mutilate as they did. With such a high % of combat rogues being dagger builds though, I think a 41 pt talent that was weapon biased would be short sighted. More so all it would give us is another vanilla instant attack based on weapon damage. A purely attack power derived attack gives rogues something new.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
Right now daggers are so far ahead its not even funny. Even the deep combat talents favor daggers over swords.
Combat Potency is a bigger boost for daggers by far, first because of the speed issue (Iblis aside swords tend to be slower than daggers) and the more efficient energy->damage conversion of backstab compared to SS.
Currently there are no real sword/mace builds other than maybe prep hemo. And thats not really a raid build.
Daggers tends to edge out swords due to the additional constraints of daggers (notably the positioning). All things equal, daggers should be > swords. Your exchanging convenience for a slower but more efficient attack.
If swords would ever = daggers, no one would use daggers. Its combo cycles are far more anal as is the play style on anything fights requiring movement.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
Right now daggers are so far ahead its not even funny. Even the deep combat talents favor daggers over swords.
Combat Potency is a bigger boost for daggers by far, first because of the speed issue (Iblis aside swords tend to be slower than daggers) and the more efficient energy->damage conversion of backstab compared to SS.
Currently there are no real sword/mace builds other than maybe prep hemo. And thats not really a raid build.
There are fast off hand swords too, also combat potency favors sword spec.
Daggers tends to edge out swords due to the additional constraints of daggers (notably the positioning). All things equal, daggers should be > swords. Your exchanging convenience for a slower but more efficient attack.
If swords would ever = daggers, no one would use daggers. Its combo cycles are far more anal as is the play style on anything fights requiring movement.
Positioning is something I wish people would drop as an argument about why daggers being better. Positioning almost never causes you to lose dps. The real reason why daggers should be better for sustained fights, and why swords pass them up in short fights is combo points per energy spent. Simply put, the energy efficiency of swords when switching targets is a lot higher than daggers. Also, having more combo points means more efficient use of them in pvp. (specifically stuns).
Originally Posted by Valen
Originally Posted by GrizleyCQ
Something has to favor SS.
Right now daggers are so far ahead its not even funny. Even the deep combat talents favor daggers over swords.
Combat Potency is a bigger boost for daggers by far, first because of the speed issue (Iblis aside swords tend to be slower than daggers) and the more efficient energy->damage conversion of backstab compared to SS.
Currently there are no real sword/mace builds other than maybe prep hemo. And thats not really a raid build.
There are fast off hand swords too, also combat potency favors sword spec.
Combat potency slightly favors sword spec. The difference on sustained fights will be minimal however.
Assuming a fast sword offhand and a fast dagger offhand we will say equal energy regen. Though I think you will have much more limited sword options...
At that point all that should matter is the DPE of attacks, which the last time I checked, is higher for daggers than swords.
Venturing a guess: because Combat Swords already has a non-SnD finisher, and can use Combat Potency to improve non-SnD to SnD ratio. Meanwhile, Combat Daggers might be able to break out of SnD only, but it's proc dependent which endangers your SnD.
Before you start to drift, and your soul begins to scream.
I just wanted to tell you, that you're listening to a dream.
Daggers tends to edge out swords due to the additional constraints of daggers (notably the positioning). All things equal, daggers should be > swords. Your exchanging convenience for a slower but more efficient attack.
If swords would ever = daggers, no one would use daggers. Its combo cycles are far more anal as is the play style on anything fights requiring movement.
There are no additional constraints. Positioning is a stupid arguement to make, if you can't get behind a mob by the time your energy completely refills you are doing something wrong.
Daggers are also easier to play, bs/bs/bs/bs/bs/snd/bs/bs/bs/bs/bs/snd there is your perfect combo that works every time, combo management is a little more tricky with swords or hemo.
I intentionally made it "favor" swords, primarily because I kinda feel that daggers right now might be.. too good.
Daggers are already pretty much the favorite of pvp builds (granted a good hemo build can keep up), and if this is true, why should daggers also be the favorite of PvE?
Other then flavor, there is no point in speccing swords.
By making 41 Combat favor swords doesn't make daggers worthless. In combat senarios you can go 16/40/5, and then you have the standard dagger pvp builds (mutilate, etc).
Just my thoughts. I supose if my idea worked off AP instead of weapon damage, it still could work.
Edit:
Originally Posted by Faytte
You guys are thinking to hard.
Sword spec=5% chance of an addition attack.
That means 5% more offhand strikes over an offhand dagger, meaning more combat potency procs over a dagger of the same speed.
Doesn't sword spec's additional attack proc a Main hand swing, or was that changed?
Venturing a guess: because Combat Swords already has a non-SnD finisher, and can use Combat Potency to improve non-SnD to SnD ratio. Meanwhile, Combat Daggers might be able to break out of SnD only, but it's proc dependent which endangers your SnD.
Hmm, I'm assuming when you have excess energy you just throw an extra BS. You waste one combo point, but with top levels of gear thats not a huge dpe loss. I seem to remeber Kalman or his cycle analyzer suggesting that is your best bet when you have an energy surplus with daggers.
Assuming a fast sword offhand and a fast dagger offhand we will say equal energy regen. Though I think you will have much more limited sword options...
At that point all that should matter is the DPE of attacks, which the last time I checked, is higher for daggers than swords.
DPE isnt all that matters. With CP, swords goes from a 3/5/5 cycle to a 5/5 cycle with full snd uptime. This is incredibly energy efficient. However, daggers go from a 5s cycle to a 3/5/5 cycle losing energy efficiency while doing so. Also, daggers do not have an improved finisher other than snd, the little things start adding up giving CP a slight edge to swords assuming equal speed offhands.
3/3 evis, 3/3 ruthless. Unless you are really unlucky, you will be able to keep a perfect 5/5 cycle with 0 snd downtime(and no other +hit than precision is required).
That means 5% more offhand strikes over an offhand dagger, meaning more combat potency procs over a dagger of the same speed.
Sword spec attacks always are generated by resetting the mainhand swing timer. Try harder.
Whoops, beaten to the punch.
Huh, thought it proced on the hand it was triggered from, but reset your swing timer for the opposing hand. I.E if your mainhand proced, your offhand gets reset, if your offhand procs the main hand gets reset. Not being a sword rogue ive never tested it:(
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
That means 5% more offhand strikes over an offhand dagger, meaning more combat potency procs over a dagger of the same speed.
Sword spec attacks always are generated by resetting the mainhand swing timer. Try harder.
Whoops, beaten to the punch.
Actually, I believe Sword Spec now grants an extra attack with the proccing weapon, whereas HoJ resets the MH swing.
I could be completely wrong on this.
you are.
HoJ has a server side check, sword spec has a client side check. This is the only difference. All extra attacks proc mainhand swings (or mainhand timer reset if you will).
HoJ has a server side check, sword spec has a client side check. This is the only difference. All extra attacks proc mainhand swings (or mainhand timer reset if you will).
3/3 evis, 3/3 ruthless. Unless you are really unlucky, you will be able to keep a perfect 5/5 cycle with 0 snd downtime(and no other +hit than precision is required).
I usually go 16/45, picking up endurance and imp sprint, or imp kick instead of ruthless and 1 point of evisc. Being able to break a couple more roots is very nice, even in some pve fights.
3/3 evis, 3/3 ruthless. Unless you are really unlucky, you will be able to keep a perfect 5/5 cycle with 0 snd downtime(and no other +hit than precision is required).
I usually go 16/45, picking up endurance and imp sprint, or imp kick instead of ruthless and 1 point of evisc. Being able to break a couple more roots is very nice, even in some pve fights.
I've got a couple things...
1) Maybe I just notice because it's my server, but there sure seem to be a lot of Kilrogg rogues in this thread... /wave Grizley, Probiscus, Dwargue & Grimmlokk.
back on topic.
2) I'm thinking of something like this as something to work towards while leveling. The extra random mob control of Imp Kick, Riposte & anti-root of sprint could be nice.
3) I've done some reading on it and haven't had time to crunch the math myself (being out of school for 6.5 years doesn't help), but what makes having a 5/5 cycle better than a 3/5/5 cycle? Assuming you start combat just before an energy tick, & no dodges, as a sword/mace rogue, you'd go: 60, 80, 40, 0, 20, 40, 20, 40 to get 5 combo pts. Isn't that about 7 seconds of attack time without SnD?
Also, I've found as a (for the moment) mace rogue, after i get the 5 SnD, i have time to get my 5 pt Evis, and then still have plenty of time to get a 3 pt SnD... but I wouldn't have time to get a 5 pt SnD without a little downtime. Maybe it's because of dodges that throw off my energy cycle and the associated global cooldown?
Basically 5/5 is better because a 3 point finisher isn't as energy efficient as a 5 pointer.
You pay 25 energy for SnD no matter how many CP. If its 1 point you pay 25 energy for 18? seconds, if its 5 points you pay 25 energy for 30 seconds. Talented of course cause nobody here is a retard ;)
You will need Combat potency to do a 5/5 cycle with a combat spec. You can do 5/5 now with hemo with the proper assassination talents.
11/22/06, 2:49 PM
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