I think, in regards to the dazing, it was more a case of Shadow Strikes (which worked on dazed or poisoned targets) and not as explicitly do to the other classes, although many classes (warrior/mage) now have methods to daze and do bonus damage from dazing (heroic strike/shield slam for instance now benefit/cause). The rogue 'benefit' from dazing got removed though so..bleh...
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
I don't understand why they don't make something like "Unmitigated Strikes", for lack of a better name, put it on a 2 minute cooldown, and make it 15 seconds for any attack to be 100% unmitigated by any source, be it armor, glancing blows, or misses/dodges/parries. Obviously not finely tuned, but it would get the same intended purpose in PvE (and being better at that!), but on a cooldown while still being very useful in PvP versus even more classes (fighting a Druid, Protection Warrior or Paladin?), and fits in with the whole Combat tree theme: Hit like a fucking truck.
I don't understand why they don't make something like "Unmitigated Strikes", for lack of a better name, put it on a 2 minute cooldown, and make it 15 seconds for any attack to be 100% unmitigated by any source, be it armor, glancing blows, or misses/dodges/parries. Obviously not finely tuned, but it would get the same intended purpose in PvE (and being better at that!), but on a cooldown while still being very useful in PvP versus even more classes (fighting a Druid, Protection Warrior or Paladin?), and fits in with the whole Combat tree theme: Hit like a fucking truck.
That would at least be useful - 15 seconds of 100% of my theoretical damage? Yes, please (although 2 minutes might be too short a cooldown for that, 3 seems more appropriate, and doubtless it would get tagged with a 5 or 10 minute cooldown). Although you'd still get the minor DPE/DPS loss on your instants from the crits/hit ratio going down, the ignoring armor aspect overwhelms that, and on your white damage, eliminating mitigation would be *huge*. I'd suggest the name "Unerring Strikes", or something similar - unmitigated is a great math term, but lacks as flavor text.
As is, Surprise Attacks is just... ugh.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Would a 1-CP finisher proc Find Weakness? If that does it could lead to a different way of looking at things in a FW build.
Also, we don't know the damage modifiers on Mutilate. It may just be MH weapon damage + OH weapon damage, which would be 200% assuming same weapon. Also, since Opportunity at the moment does not affect Mutilate, you can go 41/20 and get DW Spec.
I disagree with Lethality not being big with Mutilate. With Mutilate you're essentially getting the same %crit as someone backstabbing. That's a considerable amount of yellow damage lost.
I can see something like 30/26/5 being a good seal fate daggers build as well, that still utilizes BS as a CP generator, depending on how the math for FW works out and the final damage numbers on Mutilate and BS.
To be fair, it being a target debuff was a bit much to ask.
With 2-3 rogues on any raid it would mean an overall 10% dps buff for the entire fight.
In PvP though, with Imp KS, it means +19% damage to KS'd targets. Should work nicely with my Renataki's ;)
It basically turns 'any' finisher into a DPS finisher - Flourish, Deadly Throw, Eviscerate, Expose Armour. You get 10 secs of extra damage after any of them. Combat has some nice PvP stuff in it, but overall, it's things like Imp KS, Find Weakness and that 6 secs of 10% extra damage from stealth thing in Subtlety that will be the real PvP winners.
10% extra damage from stealth, 10% AP and 10% agi all in the subtlety tree is going to make for some very nice burst damage out of stealth.
To be fair, it being a target debuff was a bit much to ask.
With 2-3 rogues on any raid it would mean an overall 10% dps buff for the entire fight.
In PvP though, with Imp KS, it means +19% damage to KS'd targets. Should work nicely with my Renataki's ;)
It basically turns 'any' finisher into a DPS finisher - Flourish, Deadly Throw, Eviscerate, Expose Armour. You get 10 secs of extra damage after any of them. Combat has some nice PvP stuff in it, but overall, it's things like Imp KS, Find Weakness and that 6 secs of 10% extra damage from stealth thing in Subtlety that will be the real PvP winners.
10% extra damage from stealth, 10% AP and 10% agi all in the subtlety tree is going to make for some very nice burst damage out of stealth.
Flourish isn't official, and may not be a new ability, as much as that sucks. I'd trade Disembowel for Flourish in a second.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
I just wonder if we would generate too many CP's. I know my crit Backstab rate is like 65-70%+, so I would get a ton of SF procs. I guess I would just make sure to offhand Deadly and use Disembowel when I had free CP's. Without 5/5 DD or Agression or Imp Evis, I think Disembowel will do more damage. Especially considering we can use Coldblood to guarantee it crits.
Also, for the occasional PvPing, this build would definitely hold its own.
Long story short, Backstab gets a pretty hefty cp generation bonus with Seal Fate, but you're basically forced to choose between +5 to weapon skill or 5/5 in SF.
I can't look at the build you linked because Wow.com is down, but why don't you consider 4/5 dagger spec and 1/2 weap ex an option? That gets you 5/5 seal fate, 4/5 dagger spec, blade flurry, and 1/2 weap ex (which is the spec I linked on the second page, or something).
What Celandro and I have been talking about (and I just updated my post here), is that with all the new survivablity skills in subtley, rogues are almost there as viable offtank. We would need itemization (tons of stamina, high armor and defense), as well as threat generation to make it work. The point is having a rogue tanking spec would be an interesting choice, and that is what gaming is all about.
What survivability skills in subtlety? All i see are few talents that mainly help in pvp. Nothing a raid can 'rely' on.
The whole point of warrior defense gear is to minimize the chance of 'unpredicted' events happening. You can't say we are tanks based on talents that give X% chance of event Y not happening. Evasion worked so far because it basically made you 95%+ immune to physical damage for 15 seconds.
Also, there will be 3 solid tank classes in TBC already. Paladins are getting a good boost to their tanking abilities.
What Celandro and I have been talking about (and I just updated my post here), is that with all the new survivablity skills in subtley, rogues are almost there as viable offtank. We would need itemization (tons of stamina, high armor and defense), as well as threat generation to make it work. The point is having a rogue tanking spec would be an interesting choice, and that is what gaming is all about.
What survivability skills in subtlety? All i see are few talents that mainly help in pvp. Nothing a raid can 'rely' on.
The whole point of warrior defense gear is to minimize the chance of 'unpredicted' events happening. You can't say we are tanks based on talents that give X% chance of event Y not happening. Evasion worked so far because it basically made you 95%+ immune to physical damage for 15 seconds.
Also, there will be 3 solid tank classes in TBC already. Paladins are getting a good boost to their tanking abilities.
20% chance to *not die*.
A controllable full spell resist skill.
4% reduction in hit rate by mobs.
2% reduction in critical hits.
Considering our DPS gear, which isn't itemized for it, is already capable of giving us full mitigation rates upwards of 40%, combined with the potential for controllable mitigation spiking (Flourish, if it's real, Evasion, etc.), and a spec designed around it, you could quite conceivably see 60%+ complete avoidance out of a rogue evasion tanking (9% miss, 40% dodge, 10% parry, plus GS spiking dodge a good portion of the time and potentially Flourish as a huge avoidance boost).
Yes, warrior defense gear is designed to minimize unpredicted events. But that's because a warrior is going to be hit, a lot. They can't get anywhere near 60% avoidance consistently, while a properly specced BC rogue probably could, and could probably *controllably* boost himself to full avoidance mode after a crush/crit until the healers could get him back to health. If an avoidance tank isn't one-shottable, it's potentially a very strong role.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
I think my maths are correct, but if someone wants to double check:
GIVENS:
base SS: 400
crit SS (4/5 lethality): 896
...(cut rest of math for space)
The math is correct, but there's one problem. I used 4/5 lethality for the backstab version because that's all you can get, since you are force to get 5/5 Opportunity. A SS build would have 5/5 lethality. So it comes out to:
Before talent: 139.6
After talent: 139.0
Worst talent ever. :( Basically anything that improves your crit damage will widen this gap.
I think my maths are correct, but if someone wants to double check:
GIVENS:
base SS: 400
crit SS (4/5 lethality): 896
...(cut rest of math for space)
The math is correct, but there's one problem. I used 4/5 lethality for the backstab version because that's all you can get, since you are force to get 5/5 Opportunity. A SS build would have 5/5 lethality. So it comes out to:
Before talent: 139.6
After talent: 139.0
Worst talent ever. :( Basically anything that improves your crit damage will widen this gap.
Worst raid talent ever. Not getting stuff dodged is wonderful...in PvP.
Flourish isn't official, and may not be a new ability, as much as that sucks. I'd trade Disembowel for Flourish in a second.
Well it's been datamined, it makes sense, and no mob ability has the CP style functionality as far as I'm aware. So I think it's relatively likely. Hopefully :D
rogue talents seem less finished than mage for example.. given that even since the leaked ones we saw a big flux i dont think its to unreasonable to think they will change more... maybe flourish will get added then... or maybe they are holding off on adding some skills as 'secret skillz' ala tranq shot.
Worst raid talent ever. Not getting stuff dodged is wonderful...in PvP.
Yeah, true. But I'm not speccing 41 combat for pvp, I'll be sporting at least 31 points in Assassination while leveling. :D Its placement is really akward for a situational pvp talent, especially one that will lower your raid damage. I think it'd be great if it were somewhere else, or a LOT lower on the tree. I mean even if the statistical anomaly that made this lower your DPS didn't exist, it's a really really unworthy talent of 41 points. Look how low Precision is, or the old Murder was -- this is like that kinda, but only for combo building attacks. Why is it the uber Combat talent? I'm gonna vote placeholder. From screenshots leaked just days before, we see they rearranged our 41 point talents. I'm not going to be surprised if it changes again.
When browsing what I would change in the expansion as combat daggers for pve...
This was all I could come up with, nothing else seems worth it... I guess getting:
3/3 - Relentless Strikes
5/5 - Lethality
5/5 - Improved Poisons
5/5 - Dagger Spec
With 3 points left over that I shoved into:
2/2 - Sleight of Hand
1/1 - Cold Blood (Guess for that opening Ambush or Finishing Eviscerate...)
Theres not really any new talents that scream "Pick Me!" like in other classes, the only difference for me now is that I can get a few final points on some talents, and some other mediocre ones I couldn't before.
Nothing new seems worth it, all I would gain is 10 extra talent points to do whatever I wish with very minor results... =/
Theres not really any new talents that scream "Pick Me!" like in other classes, the only difference for me now is that I can get a few final points on some talents, and some other mediocre ones I couldn't before.
Nothing new seems worth it, all I would gain is 10 extra talent points to do whatever I wish with very minor results... =/
Yeah, this is pretty much how I feel about it. Um, Fleet Footed instead of Sleight of Hand, so um.. I can get to mobs faster? =/ I dunno. There's nothing really good for pve daggers, talent-wise. I'm not that excited about boning up on poison talents due to being Horde. My mainhand is almost always unpoisoned in raids for Windfury.
Seems like combat swords can pick up Seal Fate without giving anything up really. I wonder if this alone will make a shift from Daggers to Swords as the most effective raid DPS build at level 70? I played around with SF+Combat daggers, but just because of Opportunity, I can't get it without giving up all sorts of crap, and I'm not yet clear if it'd actually be a bonus or a liability. I think I could probably live without Adrenaline Rush, but I feel like I'd be back to where I was pre-Rogue Review, where only swords get this cool talent and flexibility in talent selection. I don't *want* to leave stuff out of the combat tree so I can Eviscerate in raids. :P
I guess I just don't understand why one of the "must have" talents for daggers is in the Subtlety Tree, whereas the "must have" Sword talents (eviscerate/ss-related) are in combat/assassination, where we put points anyway? I blame Ambush. Opportunity really doesn't belong in the Sub. tree, but because it effects Ambush (an opener), they threw it there. :( It's great they moved it to the top of the tree in 1.12, but we're pretty much right back where we started when the BC talents are introduced -- we can't get the same neato stuff that swords is getting.
They should just roll Opportunity into Aggression (but only effectiing Backstab) and move the current opportunity higher so that you can't get them both and have ridiculously high backstabs. That'd bring parity to swords and dagger talent selections, and people doing Assination+Sub builds for pvp could still get Opportunity how it is.
well its about god damn time swords got some love.
in the review daggerrogues were allowed to take FIVE useless(regarding raiding) talent points from camo/mod and get freellin adrenaline rush++. what did swords get?
hmm let me see, we get to trade points from imp kick/riposte and all taht fun stuff to get weapon expertise... gee haw
and because we "cant" take imp bs in combat tier2, we get to spend 3 more points on stupid dodge/parry, whoop de doodeli doo.
my point is, its too god damn early after the review to complain about swords theoretically getting too much love in the future. daggers just got buffed, HARD. (and dont get me started on endgame sword itemization vs daggers)
in the review daggerrogues were allowed to take FIVE useless(regarding raiding) talent points from camo/mod and get freellin adrenaline rush++. what did swords get?
Swords already had Adrenaline Rush. ^_^
daggers just got buffed, HARD.
Not really.. we still have to give up 1pt in Lethality for AR. In a sustained situation, assuming you use AR every 5 minutes, it barely makes up for the damage lost. It does, but *just* barely. Swords always had this nifty talent, as they weren't forced to put 10 whole points into Subtlety tree. The other buff (such as Weapon Expertise) is seen by both builds. Yet, swords got scaling Eviscerate and a new rank, something you use in a 3/5/5 cycle.. combat daggers doesn't enjoy that at all.
All I'm saying is, that same disparity in selection and flexibility is showing itself again. I'm not talking about who does the most damage or whatnot. Swords can take Seal Fate along with their fully fleshed-out Combat tree, but once again Daggers will have to give up AR to do this, leaving a decidedly blander selection of talents.
(and dont get me started on endgame sword itemization vs daggers)
Totally different argument though. We can see the talents right now, but have no clue about future itemization. For all anyone knows there'll be a ton of swords everywhere, growing off trees, etc. I'm just commenting on the talents. There really isn't anything very good for pve dagger Rogues right now. The sword rogues in my guild are all like giddy schoolgirls
Just an idea: Following this thread it seems that even Kalman does not completely object to the idea that with top gear (most importantly a good 2.8+ speed weapon) currently a hemo spec can keep up in PvE DPS at least with a combat sword rogue. Or Kalman was just nice. :-)
Now considering that the subtlety tree probably has the best tier 7/8 DPS talent of all three trees (+10% agility) maybe some x/x/4x build will be a real DPS-alternative in the expansion?
Something completely different where I would like to hear other opinions:
Currently I am playing a Night-Elf Rogue, and as long as I am combat dagger this is no big disadvantage. But considering that the expansion is basically a new beginning for everyone I am seriously considering to level a Human Rogue to 60 to switch to once the expansion is there, so I am open for sword specs. What do you guys think?
Our token AQR hemo rogue keeps up with Combat Daggers on the charts. Well, if a full clear chart from one raid is any indication, this is a recent development. :P
Just an idea: Following this thread it seems that even Kalman does not completely object to the idea that with top gear (most importantly a good 2.8+ speed weapon) currently a hemo spec can keep up in PvE DPS at least with a combat sword rogue. Or Kalman was just nice. :-)
Now considering that the subtlety tree probably has the best tier 7/8 DPS talent of all three trees (+10% agility) maybe some x/x/4x build will be a real DPS-alternative in the expansion?
Something completely different where I would like to hear other opinions:
Currently I am playing a Night-Elf Rogue, and as long as I am combat dagger this is no big disadvantage. But considering that the expansion is basically a new beginning for everyone I am seriously considering to level a Human Rogue to 60 to switch to once the expansion is there, so I am open for sword specs. What do you guys think?
Although the 30+ combat talents don't really look exciting, combat rogues still have the option to get seal fate, which is a big improvement to overall dps. Also i think 41/20 builds will have a great potential as well.
Our token AQR hemo rogue keeps up with Combat Daggers on the charts. Well, if a full clear chart from one raid is any indication, this is a recent development. :P
It may just be because I suck (which is true), but as a 24/3/24 hemo rogue I still get completely blown away by the combat swords/dagger rogues in my guild on boss fights for DPS. It's not a gear issue because my gear is some of the better among our rogues, and I do try as hard as I can to put out DPS on the boss fights, but its still something like 20% lower than the combat spec rogues.
08/29/06, 11:48 AM
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