Burning Crusade Rogue Abilities/Talents - Page 89

RikkiP · 12/09/06, 10:30 AM

Yup but spades, what about using it on 2 minute or 3 minute fights? I think we are doing Faerlina in about 140 seconds now, so with an uptime of just under 15% it could be worth considering.

EDIT: This is assuming dual IP and poison talents.

pf · 12/09/06, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by RikkiP

I think it is very hard, nearly impossible, to track windfury. Check out this screenshot:

It is very easy to determine a windfury swing in the actual combatlog generated by /combatlog

You dont have to look for increased damage, it is in the same place every time.

Kalman · 12/09/06, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by RikkiP

I think it is very hard, nearly impossible, to track windfury. Check out this screenshot:

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1...rstdps3pk5.jpg

The windfury hit can clearly be seen as the 1223 crit, but the windfury gain is before the sinister strike and the windfury fades is just after it. The way you have suggested would count the offhand 470 crit and miss out on alot of real damage that was added by windfury.

However a good point is raised here, I think that GoA/SoE is better for mutilate rogues who have specced deeply into poisons. The only issue is getting a warrior who is willing to give a good battleshout in your group with GoA totem ;)

Also is it better to have DP5 on the offhand and instant main, or dual instant? I had lots of fun last night in a BWL selling run last night on vael with 46/0/5, dual instant poison and venemous totem, 15% of my damage was poison and white damage was only 16%. This is making me consider using it on the quicker fights like faerlina or gluth or where burst damage is required (Huhuran/Maexxna).

Er.

If you're running a Mutilate build, unless you're pretty sure a hunter is going to be conscientious about Scorpid being up for the debuff, why would you even consider not running Deadly?

(That said, handedness for poisons doesn't really matter for Mutilate, run DP on the slower weapon and IP on the faster weapon; potentially DPV/DPIV, though I haven't really checked how that compares).

Natasha · 12/09/06, 12:59 PM

I have a second Mutilate Rogue in my guild and I am sure one more might try it out. What might be the best allocation of poisons for 2-3 Mutilate rogues in a raid? If I am correct, only one stack of DP5 can be up on a mob, so Deadly4 for the second rogue? I would think that a third Mutilate rogue could safely use dual IP but factoring in deaths, adds, running out of DP charges on PW, teleporting and other random events I am not sure what to recommend.

Kalman · 12/09/06, 1:00 PM

Dunno, Nat. If you have a hunter specced into the Scorpid debuff, I'd say have one DPV/IP, one DPIV/IP, and one IP/IP. Scorpid should hold up on any small gaps left by a death or whatnot.

On a sidenote, Maexxna (which I did quite well on) still annoyed me with her habit of losing my Deadly stack during webspray.

(And I didn't run out of DP charges on PW, as long as I applied it right before we started. Think I ended up with 43 charges left, for a 5 minute kill, so even a 7 minute kill should be okay.)

Natasha · 12/09/06, 1:06 PM

(And I didn't run out of DP charges on PW, as long as I applied it right before we started. Think I ended up with 43 charges left, for a 5 minute kill, so even a 7 minute kill should be okay.)

We did have a wipe or two warming up on PW so it is entirely possible that I forgot to reapply it.

pf · 12/09/06, 2:18 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Originally Posted by RikkiP

I think it is very hard, nearly impossible, to track windfury. Check out this screenshot:

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1...rstdps3pk5.jpg

The windfury hit can clearly be seen as the 1223 crit, but the windfury gain is before the sinister strike and the windfury fades is just after it. The way you have suggested would count the offhand 470 crit and miss out on alot of real damage that was added by windfury.

However a good point is raised here, I think that GoA/SoE is better for mutilate rogues who have specced deeply into poisons. The only issue is getting a warrior who is willing to give a good battleshout in your group with GoA totem ;)

Also is it better to have DP5 on the offhand and instant main, or dual instant? I had lots of fun last night in a BWL selling run last night on vael with 46/0/5, dual instant poison and venemous totem, 15% of my damage was poison and white damage was only 16%. This is making me consider using it on the quicker fights like faerlina or gluth or where burst damage is required (Huhuran/Maexxna).

Er.

If you're running a Mutilate build, unless you're pretty sure a hunter is going to be conscientious about Scorpid being up for the debuff, why would you even consider not running Deadly?

(That said, handedness for poisons doesn't really matter for Mutilate, run DP on the slower weapon and IP on the faster weapon; potentially DPV/DPIV, though I haven't really checked how that compares).

I did not run deadly thursday because 2 other rogues were running it. It simply was not worth it. I however have made dpIV and dpIII for the next raid. Yes, DPIII > instant poison VI.

Also, handedness does matter for mutilate. My offhand was proccing a lot more than my mainhand for some odd reason, which is probably some bug. Anyway, if same speeds, technically, you should run instant in the mainhand and deadly in the OH since MH will get more swings. But, unless DPV and DPVI dont stack in TBC, I dont see a reason not to use them. Although, you can run into 40 debuff limit a little bit faster.

Leto · 12/09/06, 4:18 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Dunno, Nat. If you have a hunter specced into the Scorpid debuff, I'd say have one DPV/IP, one DPIV/IP, and one IP/IP. Scorpid should hold up on any small gaps left by a death or whatnot.

On a sidenote, Maexxna (which I did quite well on) still annoyed me with her habit of losing my Deadly stack during webspray.

(And I didn't run out of DP charges on PW, as long as I applied it right before we started. Think I ended up with 43 charges left, for a 5 minute kill, so even a 7 minute kill should be okay.)

I ran out of dp charges on my oh during noth, haven't fought patch yet this week though.

Faytte · 12/09/06, 4:37 PM

Kalman what did you hit on dps on patch this week? (sorry if you already posted this!). Curious how the mutilate build is scaling with good gear.

Kalman · 12/09/06, 5:51 PM

Originally Posted by Faytte

Kalman what did you hit on dps on patch this week? (sorry if you already posted this!). Curious how the mutilate build is scaling with good gear.

711, with the caveats:

No consumables.
Forgot my Seal of the Dawn trinket.
Was my first raid fight with Mutilate, so I was still getting my cycles together.
No Cooldown Timers, so I lost out on 1 CB and 2 Earthstrike timers I could have had.

(My best PW DPS with CD was 811, but that was with the BQP/DoVS combo, not my current MF/BQP pair.)

Silentness · 12/09/06, 6:15 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Originally Posted by Faytte

Kalman what did you hit on dps on patch this week? (sorry if you already posted this!). Curious how the mutilate build is scaling with good gear.

711, with the caveats:

No consumables.
Forgot my Seal of the Dawn trinket.
Was my first raid fight with Mutilate, so I was still getting my cycles together.
No Cooldown Timers, so I lost out on 1 CB and 2 Earthstrike timers I could have had.

(My best PW DPS with CD was 811, but that was with the BQP/DoVS combo, not my current MF/BQP pair.)

When would be the best time to use Eviscerate/Rupture with Mutilate? Since Slice and dice is easy to keep up with mutilate I was wondering what exactly you do with the excess of combo points.

Question #2: Newbish question *sweats* Rank 14 dagger is now easily obtainable for anyone (Thank God). Would it be worth going for a second GM dagger to use in the OH over Blessed Qiraji Pugio for SUSTAINED raid dps? (Pugio has more DPS/good stats, but rank 14 dagger clearly has a better damage range for mutilates in the OH)

Faytte · 12/09/06, 6:20 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Originally Posted by Faytte

Kalman what did you hit on dps on patch this week? (sorry if you already posted this!). Curious how the mutilate build is scaling with good gear.

711, with the caveats:

No consumables.
Forgot my Seal of the Dawn trinket.
Was my first raid fight with Mutilate, so I was still getting my cycles together.
No Cooldown Timers, so I lost out on 1 CB and 2 Earthstrike timers I could have had.

(My best PW DPS with CD was 811, but that was with the BQP/DoVS combo, not my current MF/BQP pair.)

So with some mild pots and some retooling probably lower 800's it sounds like.

Anyhow..something interesting:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...eNo=5&sid=1#82

Certainly it hasnt felt like this at all since the patch. I know in our last Patch i went from the top spot to being behind a fire mage. Our best geared hunter hit top 6 dps beating out a few rogues, although some of rogues are experimenting with builds. If the difference between the best pve dagger spec and mutilate is only going to finish out being around 50 or so dps on patch, then theres not a overwhelming reason I think to continue being such a 'rigid' spec.

Valen · 12/09/06, 7:03 PM

Originally Posted by Faytte

Originally Posted by Kalman

Originally Posted by Faytte

Kalman what did you hit on dps on patch this week? (sorry if you already posted this!). Curious how the mutilate build is scaling with good gear.

711, with the caveats:

No consumables.
Forgot my Seal of the Dawn trinket.
Was my first raid fight with Mutilate, so I was still getting my cycles together.
No Cooldown Timers, so I lost out on 1 CB and 2 Earthstrike timers I could have had.

(My best PW DPS with CD was 811, but that was with the BQP/DoVS combo, not my current MF/BQP pair.)

So with some mild pots and some retooling probably lower 800's it sounds like.

Anyhow..something interesting:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...eNo=5&sid=1#82

Certainly it hasnt felt like this at all since the patch. I know in our last Patch i went from the top spot to being behind a fire mage. Our best geared hunter hit top 6 dps beating out a few rogues, although some of rogues are experimenting with builds. If the difference between the best pve dagger spec and mutilate is only going to finish out being around 50 or so dps on patch, then theres not a overwhelming reason I think to continue being such a 'rigid' spec.

Well, i think rogues will gain more than other classes when they level up. Fire mages right now can pretty much get most of their top dps talents, while our lethality-SA-opportunity chain completes at 70. Also WE and SA buffs are still pending.

Vitality/BT in their current form need buffs still as well.

Faytte · 12/09/06, 7:20 PM

I posted this on beta forums..kinda a nifty idea for blade twisting..

Blade Twisting (2 points)
Critical strikes with sinister strike and backstab have a 50%/100% chance to cause the targets dodge and parry abilities to become lowered by 1% for 12 seconds. Stacks up to 5 times.

Spades · 12/09/06, 7:38 PM

I would rather they add some sort of synergy with daze effects.

Faytte · 12/09/06, 8:58 PM

personally id rather have something nicely controllable than a daze effect at this point. If we had a way to control the daze proc, that would be one thing...but praying one out of every 5 of my backstabs procs it seems 'meh'.

Symbul · 12/09/06, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by Spades

I would rather they add some sort of synergy with daze effects.

Personally I'd prefer they did away with those silly daze talents since they're obviously not going to do anything worthwhile with the concept. Come on, they introduced this stuff and then said "Oh, maybe we could make some raid bosses dazeable" after people brought it up. But fortunately the daze talents are in easily ignored places.

Spades · 12/09/06, 10:53 PM

I would like them to do something worthwhile with the concept; even if it's not for raid bosses. That kind of debuff management has potential, especially in low-number groups.

Glass · 12/10/06, 1:13 AM

So anyone noticing pvp misses now? I don't know if the hit rate is changed but I missed a few cheapshots and some mutilates (with both hands) today with 9% to hit. I was more than a little surprised.

Wodahs · 12/10/06, 2:03 AM

Ive missed several mutilates on tbc. And when you miss, its not just one hand that misses, its both. I have 20% hit, seems like a miss is a little unlikely.

Voljun · 12/10/06, 2:05 AM

Missed Cheap Shots with 9% hit? That is really odd. I was going to say it was the loss of Precision (assuming you weren't SF or prep), but 9% should be more than enough.

Cyrithor · 12/10/06, 6:54 AM

Originally Posted by Tiiki

A question I keep forgetting to ask:

Mutilate enchants:

Best for PvE: double crusader?
Best for PvP: double +5 damage?

That's just my hunch anyway. Though I'd quite like to play double crusader in PvP just for those double proc moments! I suspect double mongoose will be everyone's choice at 70 for the build...?

Thoughts?

I'm curious as to the optimal enchanting for a Mutilate build for PvE as well. (for current level 60 and corrisponding content). I'm going to be picking up the GM Dirk tomorrow, and was thinking of just putting on +15 Agility, like my normal offhands, but reading this got me thinking....

I'm offhanding my Pugio currently, which not so long ago was my main hand, thus was enchanted with Crusader. With both daggers enchanted with crusader currently, I see what seems to be *a lot* of double crusader procs... assuming this is due to an instant offhand attack (mutilate), thus upping the proc-rate? Any thoughts on enchants would be most beneficial.

Kalman · 12/10/06, 9:24 AM

Originally Posted by Faytte

Originally Posted by Kalman

Originally Posted by Faytte

Kalman what did you hit on dps on patch this week? (sorry if you already posted this!). Curious how the mutilate build is scaling with good gear.

711, with the caveats:

No consumables.
Forgot my Seal of the Dawn trinket.
Was my first raid fight with Mutilate, so I was still getting my cycles together.
No Cooldown Timers, so I lost out on 1 CB and 2 Earthstrike timers I could have had.

(My best PW DPS with CD was 811, but that was with the BQP/DoVS combo, not my current MF/BQP pair.)

So with some mild pots and some retooling probably lower 800's it sounds like.

Anyhow..something interesting:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...eNo=5&sid=1#82

Certainly it hasnt felt like this at all since the patch. I know in our last Patch i went from the top spot to being behind a fire mage. Our best geared hunter hit top 6 dps beating out a few rogues, although some of rogues are experimenting with builds. If the difference between the best pve dagger spec and mutilate is only going to finish out being around 50 or so dps on patch, then theres not a overwhelming reason I think to continue being such a 'rigid' spec.

Honestly, trinket+pots should probably get me close to 800, can probably break 850 if I get my cycles and cooldowns right. And on some other fights it's clearly superior to CD (Maexxna it's tied, in my mind, and I strongly prefer it on Anub'rekhan; Loatheb should be obvious which build will prevail. Really, the only fight I feel Mutilate is actively bad on is Thaddius, and CD isn't much better - that fight just sucks for positional attacks, and the added downside of the poison frequently dropping off during polarity shift, at least for me, doesn't help, not to mention 45 energy SSes).

Symbul · 12/10/06, 10:23 AM

Missed Cheap Shots with 9% hit? That is really odd. I was going to say it was the loss of Precision (assuming you weren't SF or prep), but 9% should be more than enough.

I haven't had it happen to me (that I've noticed) but I saw my arena teammate miss one last night.

Faytte · 12/10/06, 11:50 AM

850? Thats only 25 less than the best CD build I could figure out for my gear (6/41/4). Wheres my sad panda face...

:(

There it is. Hopefully CD will be undergoing some kind of buff pre BC. In the meantime it doesnt look like we will have a primary PvE dagger build. Right now I'm using DS/Pugio, thinking of picking up a MF to putting it or the DS in the OH.

So for PvE dps..dual crusader?