Everyone got their "class" trinkets nailed, so not surprised at the Renataki change.
There was whispers about Weapon Expertise changing to include immunity to disarm alongside the 10 weapon skill. Anyone heard anything further on this? It doesn't make any sense at all that deep in combat, but I suppose it would add a tiny bit of value to the 1% hit/crit.
Im waiting on 4 piece bonescythe nerf so i can end the new year by cashing out my account :l
Edit- Ive been playing beta for some time now and frankly Im not happy where my class stands. Okay so some items from 60 scale well... how about making possible upgrades instead then? Why nerf certain items then offer no real upgrade ontop of that? The more time in spend on beta the more it becomes clear Im not going into expansion. Dont even get me started on our talents.
What happened to the priest ZG trink, IMO that was the best one, hands down.
No changes were made to that trinket
Scalability of the priest trinket is small; Gheal is always the same cast time no matter the rank, the only thing that "scales" is the amount of mana you're saving.
What happened to the priest ZG trink, IMO that was the best one, hands down.
No changes were made to that trinket
Scalability of the priest trinket is small; Gheal is always the same cast time no matter the rank, the only thing that "scales" is the amount of mana you're saving.
No need for a nerf.
So they changed it to not be a 1.5 second gheal now?
Edit- Ive been playing beta for some time now and frankly Im not happy where my class stands. Okay so some items from 60 scale well... how about making possible upgrades instead then? Why nerf certain items then offer no real upgrade ontop of that? The more time in spend on beta the more it becomes clear Im not going into expansion. Dont even get me started on our talents.
I wouldn't assume that no upgrades will exist, there's a fairly substantial amount of itemisation still to be finalised and discovered. It's simply very clear that Blizzard are taking preventative measures against items at 60 still being awesome at level 70. I don't see any fundamental problem with that.
And before anyone else asks about other ZG trinkets, I was referring to "class" trinkets in the sense of the trinkets that are generally identified as actually being used by a class. Black Book, for example, or Lifegiving Gem. Call me an idiot, but I'm just not feeling this whole "we're being victimised" thing that's going around at the moment.
What happened to the priest ZG trink, IMO that was the best one, hands down.
No changes were made to that trinket
Scalability of the priest trinket is small; Gheal is always the same cast time no matter the rank, the only thing that "scales" is the amount of mana you're saving.
No need for a nerf.
you do realize that it "scales" exactly like 60 energy right? Backstab is always the same "energy" no matter the rank.
DP5/DP4 might not be a bad idea for a mutilate build.
I tried this last night on Patchwerk with astonishingly bad results.
According to SWS and a /combatlog parse, I did ~1000 damage with DP4, all charges were consumed over the course of the fight (and I applied fresh before we started). DP5 on my other weapon did around 15K damage, and there were still a few charges left at the end.
I don't know how 105 charges disappeared without doing hardly any damage. Here's the poison numbers:
Is it just me, or are the stats on the Tier 5 utter crap? There's very little stamina on it, crit seems low-ish, hit is almost non-existant, and they gave us DODGE on the shoulders again after several years of rogues bitching about the Bloodfang shoulders?
It has a lot of AP, which is cool, but a rogue does not live on AP alone.
I don't get Blizzard's itemization guys.
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The trinket was not changed to spell haste rating, and even if it was it wouldn't matter since it retains the same cast time.
And I think the scaling is different than that of BS. BS always is a static 60 energy, but gains more dmg per rank, which is why it directly scales.
You could say that you heal more in the same amount of time versus lower ranks, but you pay more mana for it, so I feel it's a different kettle of fish.
One note about the itemization stuff. Is anyone aware of any resources that track what gear allow what types of jewels; that information combined w/ a database of what jewels we're currently aware of could provide some pretty neat insight into what's going to be available to us at lvl70. I guess I'm thinking something along the lines of a CTprofiles site that allows you to play w/ socketing.
As a further aside to that point, any idea when CTprofiles is going to update their talent page? 8(
I bring this up here b/c post #2454 brings up a good point about Blizz's itemization team. I'd like to be able to get my head around what types of builds will most benefit from what jewels.
You could say that you heal more in the same amount of time versus lower ranks, but you pay more mana for it, so I feel it's a different kettle of fish.
Of course your mana pool and regen are bigger too. I think the underlying idea is that a max rank gheal costs X% of your base mana at level 40, 60 and 70.
It's like this, the spellcast cost scales up with level, the mana pool scales up, and the regen of that pool scales up. The trinket is a fixed % and thus scales up as well.
Rogue version:
The cost to backstab is static, the energy pool is static, the regen of that pool is static. The trinket scales down.
You can say it's balanced, I'll have to trust Blizzard's word on that, they have the final say anyway. You can't really make an arguement for it being consistent though.
According to SWS and a /combatlog parse, I did ~1000 damage with DP4, all charges were consumed over the course of the fight (and I applied fresh before we started). DP5 on my other weapon did around 15K damage, and there were still a few charges left at the end.
I don't know how 105 charges disappeared without doing hardly any damage.
Hypothesis: DP5 may now overwrite DP4. Your DP4 charges could get used up without actually applying poison ("A more powerful spell" error). You might occasionally apply DP4 successfully, if DP5 happened to drop, and that would allow the rare DP4 tick. Easy to test: Put DP4 on your mainhand, DP5 on a spare weapon in your bags, hit a target until DP4 procs, then switch weapons and see if DP5 overwrites.
According to SWS and a /combatlog parse, I did ~1000 damage with DP4, all charges were consumed over the course of the fight (and I applied fresh before we started). DP5 on my other weapon did around 15K damage, and there were still a few charges left at the end.
I don't know how 105 charges disappeared without doing hardly any damage.
Hypothesis: DP5 may now overwrite DP4. Your DP4 charges could get used up without actually applying poison ("A more powerful spell" error). You might occasionally apply DP4 successfully, if DP5 happened to drop, and that would allow the rare DP4 tick. Easy to test: Put DP4 on your mainhand, DP5 on a spare weapon in your bags, hit a target until DP4 procs, then switch weapons and see if DP5 overwrites.
I was using DP4 alongside another rogue using DP5 last night. Both were on the mob at the same time. Although, there should be some code to prevent dp6/7 stacking per rogue in tbc.
According to SWS and a /combatlog parse, I did ~1000 damage with DP4, all charges were consumed over the course of the fight (and I applied fresh before we started). DP5 on my other weapon did around 15K damage, and there were still a few charges left at the end.
I don't know how 105 charges disappeared without doing hardly any damage.
Hypothesis: DP5 may now overwrite DP4. Your DP4 charges could get used up without actually applying poison ("A more powerful spell" error). You might occasionally apply DP4 successfully, if DP5 happened to drop, and that would allow the rare DP4 tick. Easy to test: Put DP4 on your mainhand, DP5 on a spare weapon in your bags, hit a target until DP4 procs, then switch weapons and see if DP5 overwrites.
I was using DP4 alongside another rogue using DP5 last night. Both were on the mob at the same time. Although, there should be some code to prevent dp6/7 stacking per rogue in tbc.
So there's no problem with DP4 and DP5 being on the same mob if different people are using them (I've done it before with 2 people running different ranks, so this is no big surprise), but maybe since it was *my* DP5 and *my* DP4 there is a conflict. I guess I'll have to test it in some off-time.
So after doing some numbers on mutilate I'm finding out that the average mutlate crits are identical to backstab average crits with the same gear. So in reality we really do have a 41 point talent that, when broken down and probably over simplifying, is basically a backstab that relies on dual daggers and a poisoned target that rewards 1 extra combo point. I know, it's been beaten to death before we actually saw the talent. However, now that I can see some of the numbers it's looking to be true.
Don't get me wrong, I'm mutilate right now and it is a nice bit of fun, a good change of pace from a CD or SF build. But I'm just not sure it is really worthy of 41 talent points. At this point I'm more of the opinion that it should be a learnable skill ala backstab if anything, if they don't change the talent to either remove the poisitional requirement, poison requirement or weapon requirement... something needs to change with this talent. 41 points should mean more than another button to press that looks different than the other button you pressed. I quite literally just changed my nostromo to point to the mutilate icon rather than the backstab icon and it's basically the same, but I see two yellow numbers now rather than one.
I think it pretty much sums up the rogue's "new" talent experience post 2.0/tbc...
I figure things will change with shiv; average mutilate crits for me with a poison target exceed that of backstab. It gets better if you're with a class who can poison instantly (IE, hunters)
As long as poison can be a guaranteed thing, I'd definitely take mutilate. Then and now.
So after doing some numbers on mutilate I'm finding out that the average mutlate crits are identical to backstab average crits with the same gear. So in reality we really do have a 41 point talent that, when broken down and probably over simplifying, is basically a backstab that relies on dual daggers and a poisoned target that rewards 1 extra combo point. I know, it's been beaten to death before we actually saw the talent. However, now that I can see some of the numbers it's looking to be true.
Don't get me wrong, I'm mutilate right now and it is a nice bit of fun, a good change of pace from a CD or SF build. But I'm just not sure it is really worthy of 41 talent points. At this point I'm more of the opinion that it should be a learnable skill ala backstab if anything, if they don't change the talent to either remove the poisitional requirement, poison requirement or weapon requirement... something needs to change with this talent. 41 points should mean more than another button to press that looks different than the other button you pressed. I quite literally just changed my nostromo to point to the mutilate icon rather than the backstab icon and it's basically the same, but I see two yellow numbers now rather than one.
I think it pretty much sums up the rogue's "new" talent experience post 2.0/tbc...
Its a new talent, that with seal fate and find weakness add quite a lot more to think about while raiding to maximize your dps instead of the same-old backstabx5 snd, repeat. The only thing that I would love to see change about this talent is the poison requirement. Its quite dumb to make a talent so incredibly reliant on poisons when you cannot poison every mob.
Has anyone determined what the 'best' enchants are for mutilate yet? Is +5 worth it for PVP mutilate I guess is what im really wondering.
The "best" is dual crusader. That said, you may prefer dual 15 agility or a mixture of the common weapon enchants. I don't think any enchant will make a big difference in the short-term.
Off-topic, I think +5 looks the best, but that is not what is on my weapons.
I am sure many have said it before, but I am glad the Tier 4 Rogue bonuses were changed. Before they were useless, now it is something PvE Rogues will say "when can I remove the 2 set bonus?". It gives 1 more second to Slice per CP.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Has anyone determined what the 'best' enchants are for mutilate yet? Is +5 worth it for PVP mutilate I guess is what im really wondering.
The "best" is dual crusader. That said, you may prefer dual 15 agility or a mixture of the common weapon enchants. I don't think any enchant will make a big difference in the short-term.
Off-topic, I think +5 looks the best, but that is not what is on my weapons.
I am sure many have said it before, but I am glad the Tier 4 Rogue bonuses were changed. Before they were useless, now it is something PvE Rogues will say "when can I remove the 2 set bonus?". It gives 1 more second to Slice per CP.
I'm not so sure crusader will beat out dual 15agi for mutilate.
30agi vs ~60str
With seal fate factored in, I think 15agi is a superior enchant, and +5 damage is not worth it for mutilate.
Its a new talent, that with seal fate and find weakness add quite a lot more to think about while raiding to maximize your dps instead of the same-old backstabx5 snd, repeat. The only thing that I would love to see change about this talent is the poison requirement. Its quite dumb to make a talent so incredibly reliant on poisons when you cannot poison every mob.
The poison requirement is a nuisance. Now everywhere I go I *have* to use poison, and if a mob is poison immune, that's a big problem for me. However, without *some* sort of condition, MH Mut *is* backstab, and instead of improved crit chance, you get the OH strike and more CPs. Maybe it deserves to be that good for being a 41 pt talent, maybe not.
I am sure many have said it before, but I am glad the Tier 4 Rogue bonuses were changed. Before they were useless, now it is something PvE Rogues will say "when can I remove the 2 set bonus?". It gives 1 more second to Slice per CP.
Actually, doesn't the set change make it so you can drop ruthlessness and still maintain a good 5 pt cycle? You could save 2-3 talent points from 2 pieces of gear and invest them somewhere else. That's a pretty big deal.
12/13/06, 11:01 AM
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