You can not stack 2 stacks by yourself. You get one stack of deadly. What we do is use multiple rogues using different ranks, and sometimes 2 rogues using the same one if there is an issue of keeping it stacked at 5.

Since the patch I have been using Deadly IV and another rogue using Deadly V, with 5 points in imp poisons I am burning through the entire stack during Patchwerk, Grobbulus and Thaddius (reapply between phases to avoid this).

You can have up to 5 stacks of deadly on the mob right now... rank 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, but you have to have 5 rogues applying them, and you don't want to use anything lower then rank 4.

If you have points in Improved Poisons, try putting Deadly on your OH, and Instant on your MH, you shouldn't have an issue keeping a stack of 5 up (or put Deadly on your slower weapon). Without improved poisons you probably want it on your MH regardless.

I've followed this thread for most of the 99 pages, and I don't remember us discussing the 8 piece Bonescythe very much. Maybe there was something I missed, but i didn't find it.

Has anyone ever figured out what the Chance per Combo Point actually is on Reveal Flaw? It'd be nice if it was 100%, but i imagine it would take a lot of testing on Blasted Lands mobs to figure out.

One concern i have is what appears on the thottbot listing for the set bonus.

The spell if you click on it from a set piece is this:
http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=28814

It lists the following as the "related spell" that it procs... and has a 3 min cooldown. Has anyone experienced a cooldown?
http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=28815

With mutilate, you want as many free combo points as possible. This set bonus will be under appreciated at first, but it opens up a lot for mutilate.

Yes, this is with a poisoned mob.

Like I said, I'm mute and having fun with it, but I'm starting to see that it really isn't much of a difference if any, from SF daggers for both pve and pvp. The only real saving grace is find weakness which is a great talent.

Personally I see Mutilate being alot stronger and more versitile then just SF Daggers ever was, both in terms of DPS and Utility. SF with Backstab was like 1.5-1.6 combo points per backstab, Mutilate is 2.5-2.6 per.

Those extra combo points add up really fast, I am normally getting atleast 2, and sometimes 3 Eviserates in between S&D's right now (3 is when Ruthlessness procs 3 times and you get 3 crits, aka S&D, Ruthlessness Proc, Mutilate crit, Evis, Ruthlessness Proc, Mutilate crit, Evis, Ruthlessness proc...), sure they are only 4 point Eviserates, but those are hitting for around 2k with my gear on a sundered mob.

Basically we now have a raid viable spec that is good for PvP, which hasn't been the case since they added Weapon Exp. so I am very happy. Now if we could get some more decent daggers it would be even better (1 Death's Sting, and 0 Maexxna's and we are working on 4H... hence MHing a Harbinger, so I am working on picking up a GM Dagger after raids... I missed the bugged honor week/weekend :-( ).

Is HoJ still better than BHB for a mutilate build? 2% crit looks kind of nice for a special attack that craves for crit gear.

Some people are not in beta ;).

Those strings of 4 pt Evis's are really nice, especially since in a lot of other cases, your evis doesn't make it into the 10 secs of FW.

You can get 2x Mut + evis into the 10 second FW window if you wait for full energy before using a finisher, but if you squeeze that evis into the FW window, you're performing a finisher at minimum energy, meaning you'll probably only get 1x Mut into the next 10 secs of FW. I don't know if it's worth it to go for the evis or just consistently wait for 50+ energy so I can get 2x mutilate in 10 sec (slack time for lag/cooldowns/chance of no relentless if at 4 pts).

I suppose if you figure it's a choice between 4x mut under FW vs 3xMut and 1xEvis, it depends on how your average evis stacks up against your average Mut. I suppose you're also gambling on dodges that could waste your time and knock the evis out of the 10 seconds even though you waited for full energy.

sorry bad habit :X

If only they had added Envenom to our class at level 60 in the 2.0 patch, Mutilate builds would be On Like Donkey Kong.

If you are wielding a dagger faster than 1.8 and have more than 2 points in Imp Poisons, I'd suggest slapping IP6 on your fastest dagger and DP5 on your slower (no matter what the hand since mutilate procs poison applications from both weapons). Wielding 1.8/1.7 and 5/5 Imp Poisons in a Mut build I was constantly running out of charges of DP5 on my 1.7 speed Pugio on hard dps fights, while I still retained charges of my IP6 on my mainhand - which equates to a decent amount of lost damage. Since then, I respec'd a bit (3/5 Imp Poisons + 1/5 Vile Poisons) and put IP6 on my fastest dagger (1.7 offhanded Pugio) and DP5 on my mainhand (1.8 Maex). If you can stomach the utility loss of not having poisons on your target sooner in a multi target boss fight or in PvP, you should look into fine tuning how many talent points you really need in Imp Poisons vs Vile Poisons with your weapon setup. It's stilly to spend 8s repoisoning your offhand with DP5 during Patchwerk, that's a lot of lost damage.

Also, make friends with your raiding hunters, Scorpid Sting is the shit now and you should request it for the good of the raid and your mutilate damage.

Absent envenom, and if hunters are using scorpid, why not just use double IP w/ full talents? You can always respec at 66 or whatever when you get the new finisher (envenom).

Then for grinding, w/ full talents, you're guaranteed to get a crip up in the initial CS. Which, w/ no talents and only 3BF I wasn't able to get 100% of the time grinding at tyrs. Very frustrating when with Pugio/HoD (2 fast daggers) a mob gets out of a CS w/ no poisons. 8(

CS > auto-atack> KS > Mutilate > Gouge > CB + Evis ( or normal evis )
( GM Dagger and Perdition Off-hand )

Mobs are almost dead or forced to heal by the time evis hits .

Mutilate holds his own as far as grinding goes in Tyr Hand ( even tho my gear is overpowering for those mobs )

This is a beta rogue thread..

Well I keep trying to talk the trainer into teaching it to me... but he keeps saying something about my level...

The biggest issue I am having so far has been that Deadly gives more DPS but it runs out. Once I finish grinding out the GM Dagger I plan to try using it on that... maybe that will prevent it from running out, and if not I am just going to go double instant for longer boss fights.

As far as utility goes, all I am doing right now is raiding and pvping, and it works great for both, and shot of trying to farm elite giants I don't see to many things where I would have an issue right now. Leveling up might be a different story, but if you don't like not being able to gouge either use envenom before gouging, and then instantly gouge after that, or just use crippling/mind-numbing and instant since neither of those break it, and stick with Eviserate.

Based on Pf's most recent spreadsheet I am having trouble finding a build that does more DPS then my 46/0/5 PvE focused build.

It's really more a 2.0 rogue thread. You have to remember the thread was created back when everyone assumed that the new talents wouldn't come in until the expansion was actually released, hence the title for the topic. While part of the discussion is still focused on the new abilities, it's really not unreasonable to have conversations about what does and doesn't work in 2.0 in it.

And obviously Envenom would be a bit hard to use on live. ;)

The new and improved wound poison also works. That and crippling are probably ideal for solo work, that way you can pvp a bit if need be and they add functionality for you (less chance of runners or healers disrupting your kill). If you're pvp'ing, I don't know why you'd ever use deadly other than hoping to break another rogue's vanish.

What do you guys prefer for mutilate, HoJ or Blackhand's breadth?

Tested it on one of those Blasted Land mobs once. Nothing fancy, just wrote down the information I got on a piece of paper.

66 5point Eviscerate
20 Revealed Flaw proccs

Don't know if it's big enough of a sample to be accurate and I didn't test using less combo point eviscs.

I use crippling/deadly pretty frequently in PvP now, actually. It annoys rogues, provides pretty decent damage, and seriously, there is nothing funnier than watching a warlock die to my DoTs after his kill me (similarly, nothing funnier than bowing a hunter to death after I get rooted by entrapment.) I don't have Imp Gouge anymore and use it a *lot* less frequently, and Blind was always something I used against added opponents or to CC someone I couldn't catch back into range, rather than to extend an in-combat lock. I think you're underestimating the damage potential; that 5 stack goes up very quickly, and against any class with armor provides a nice damage boost.

That said, if I'm working in an organized against another organized, crippling/wounding is far superior.

hmm, 5-6% per cp. I'll have to try to reprogram that into the sheet assuming 6% per cp. Too bad the BS set bonus's were not retroactively applied to mutilate a la black book.

@PF

I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but how would HoJ or Blackhand's breadth fit in your mutilate calculator.

Question #2: How do I turn off the automatic 4 PC bonescythe bonus without destroying all the saved data? Since mutilate doesn't benefit the 4 piece I'm trying to turn it off the options.

I actually will probably go with crippling mh/wounding OH for pvp in the expansion. I use it pretty frequently today in WSG today. Deadly is too easy to react to and they die too fast for me to get much benefit so I prefer crippling MH / instant OH.

I love using rupture on hunters for similar reasons. I can't help but cackle with glee when they do the night elf backflip during their scatter shot + frost trap + aimed shot set-up.