Shaman expansion thoughts and desires - Page 11

• frmorrison · 09/01/06, 1:46 PM

Many a Shaman have been sad that ilvl 81 Swords have been dusted.

In the Patch 1.10 teaser picture, it featured a Shaman with PvP gear and a big sword. If you put your mouse over his Rogue buddy, she says something like stop teasing the players, since Shaman can't use swords.

Swords and Polearms are dps Shaman's bane.

Durnitol · 09/01/06, 2:01 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Originally Posted by Dromakis

And more +hit = more crits over time.

This actually is not true. +hit turns "misses" into "hits" but will not give you a larger number of crits per X attacks.

From WoW-wiki:

Now assume your weapon does 100 points of base damage, before modification, you will do (5 * 200 + 80 * 100) = 9000 damage over 100 swings. With +5% to crit, the result is (10 * 200 + 75* 100) = 9500 damage over 100 swings. With 5% to hit, the damage figure is (5 * 200 + 85 * 100) = 9500 damage over 100 swings.

So all other things being equal, in this case, increasing your probabilities to hit or to crit increase your average damage output by exactly the same amount. Useful differences would only arise from effects which require hits or crits (like some abilities or procs).

However, real combat is rarely done against equal-level mobs from behind without dual wielding. Consider the following table, which represents a melee attack made against a boss mob (effectively level 63) by a level 60 dual-wielder from the front:

	        base 	+5% crit 	+5% hit
miss         24.6% 	24.6% 	19.6%
dodge       5.6% 	5.6% 	5.6%
parry        5.6% 	5.6% 	5.6%
block        5.6% 	5.6% 	5.6%
glancing    40.0% 	40.0% 	40.0%
normal hit 14.2% 	9.2% 	19.2%
crit           4.4% 	9.4% 	4.4%

While it's true here that +5% crit adds as much average melee damage as +5% hit, adding more +crit% gear will soon result in a kind of "crit cap". With no +hit% bonus, adding +crit% bonuses beyond a total of 14.2% will not increase the attacker's actual chance to crit against that target. If this attacker had more than +14.2% of total +crit bonuses, adding +hit% gear would actually increase his crit chance!

This makes more sense when you realize that so-called "+hit" gear doesn't so much increase your hit chance as decrease your miss chance.

If you are not dual-wielding, or if you are using an instant attack or "special" attack such as Sinister Strike or Heroic Strike, your base chance to miss an equal-level target is only 5%, and your chance to miss a boss mob (if you're level 60) will be, at most, 5.6%. The common consensus is that +6% is the desirable maximum for +hit% unless you are a dual-wielder.

edited for readability

• frmorrison · 09/01/06, 2:07 PM

The Crit cap is there b/c misses on the combat roll table can overright crits; a Cold Blood 100% to crit attack can miss without proper hit gear.

Hit still only removes misses, but that indirectly affects crits.

However, this is a moot point since a ENH Shaman will have lots of hit already.

Kalman · 09/01/06, 2:08 PM

While it was nice of you to copy-paste WoWwiki, Gurgthock's statement was correct. +hit will not increase the amount of critical hits you deal over time unless you're inside the crit cap. Since an enh shaman generally *will* be attacking from behind, the crit cap isn't even remotely similar to 14.2% - it's (29.8 + +hit).

Malorum · 09/01/06, 2:26 PM

And this again proves why WoWWiki isnt exactly the most accurate source of information albeit entertaining at times.

Supa · 09/01/06, 2:47 PM

Hmmm, who thinks having a Hand of Edward the Odd for your offhand will be viable for increasing dps and mana conservation. Instead of spamming mana INEFFICIENT shocks, you can proc and spam lightning bolts instead....

Will the mana conservation and the cooldowns you save on your shocks be enough DPS to cover the loss in DPS from the actual weapon itself?

berg · 09/01/06, 3:02 PM

Well Supa with the theoretical mana regen with Judgement on the mob, efficiency is a nonfactor. However having hand of edward in the offhand could certainly be interestingin PVP.

Supa · 09/01/06, 3:18 PM

yeah, well not just mana conservation, but also extra dps with the lightning bolt/shock spam and also decreased times to chain heal your melee party...

• frmorrison · 09/01/06, 3:27 PM

If a Shaman is going for deep Enh, they can't be worried about healing too much, since they will have little +healing, and are focused on buffs up/watching mana usage.
Also the Hand of Edward is a proc, when a melee Shaman needs to heal, he should have realiable healing items. The Shaman should have healing focus, so the few heals needed should cast.

Not worth the cost of losing a good dps item imo.

Nite_Moogle · 09/01/06, 3:32 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

If a Shaman is going for deep Enh, they can't be worried about healing too much, since they will have little +healing, and are focused on buffs up/watching mana usage.

Because you certainly couldn't be contributing the AP buff to your group and using two fast weapons and JoW to regain mana faster than resto shamans while still acting as a backup healer. No amount of focusing on pew pew damage will turn a Shaman into a real DPS class, even if you're able to push enough damage to really show up on the DMs you have zero threat reduction and will never be able to contribute to the extent that a warrior, rogue, mage, or warlock can. Shamans are a support class, and are best in situations where they can fill multiple roles at once.
Edit: grammar

Louie · 09/01/06, 3:37 PM

Well, on fights where threat is a serious issue, it's always possible to drop tranquil air...

But yeah, I think that shamans are going to see greatest utility in the expansion when they are allowed to diversify roles... the new talents don't really let you focus exclusively on DPS because, as mentioned above, you'd just become a gimped DPS class with little to no healing utility. If you truly go for a hybrid role, however, you'll be able to contribute no matter what you're asked to do.

I have a shaman, and you bet your ass I'll be going for dual wield. When it comes right down to it that sounds like fun, and I still play the game to have fun. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Quigon · 09/01/06, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Michad

And this again proves why WoWWiki isnt exactly the most accurate source of information albeit entertaining at times.

Are you trying to tell me C'Thun doesn't have 3 phases?
And unbalancing strike ISN'T due to my crusader proc?

I think you're full of it... THAT PLACE HAS GRAFFS SON

Artaxz · 09/01/06, 4:12 PM

Thanks for clearing up the elemental devastation question I had....I wasn't planning on that spec anyway, as +hit seems far more important.

I do have another question for Praetorian and others that posted their spec: why are you putting a point into Improved Weapon Totems instead of Anticipation. Assuming a party of 1 warrior, 3 rogues, 1 shaman the totems I will be dropping would be SoE, GoA -- not WF (rogues will all be combat daggers/seal of fate) and not FTW (since the rogues insist that poisons provide higher dps -- and I am pretty sure you can't use both, though it has been a few months since I raided with my shaman).

If not for a PvE reason, is it for the PvP glory of 2v2 when your other friend is a LOL2hand MS warrior?

I am pretty sure I want another point in dodge, personally.

Nite_Moogle · 09/01/06, 4:17 PM

Unless your group is 4 dagger Rogues, Windfury is still going to provide far more group damage than GoA. If your rogues are insisting poisons do more damage... well... chances are very good they don't.
Not to mention if you're dodging something on a raid, you probably shouldn't be meleeing, because whatever you dodge will probably kill you in short order when it does connect. Those are the fights where you'll be out of range healing with your akimbo phat +healing weapons.

Shabadu · 09/01/06, 4:20 PM

The only real value that an elemental shaman is going to bring to the table will be wrath of air and mana spring. Nothing about our talents other than our 10%in---->mp5 talent do anything for the raid. Late elemental is entirely pvp talents, with the fire totem as the bone we're thrown. As somone who raids and pvp's, giving up NS(which is the single best pvp talent ever) isn't worth 1.6% crit to the party every 2 minutes. An instant 1k-2k(lightning bolts, CL would be a bit more) on top of a 5% chance to doublecast while syncing up a LB/CL/ES combo far outweighs the crit. This is moonkin level of useless people.