One point I have not yet seen mentioned here is the danger of increased threat. While shaman may be getting the -20% or even -29% threat from melee, Iv'e seen no indication of it and this makes a pretty significant difference.
Being able to only do 70% of dps in threat means that your additive dps has to grant each person in your group 7.5% more of thier dps, and I'm not convinced that merely 10% AP + new ranks of totems will pull that off.
This only applies to Enhance of course, but taking from all the new aggro talents that aggro will be more of a tight fit, does anyone else see this potentially becoming an issue?
Blessing of Salvation...
On the top of that, I don't think devs want shaman DPS to reach levels when aggro is an issue (unless of course we are talking deliberate Rockbiter/Earthshock spam). Hybrid is a hybrid - staying in hybrid gear, keeping debuff up and healing from time to time.
What we get here is secondary DPS - adding to the score, supporting team with debuff effect, but not reaching levels that primary DPSers can sport.
Yea, i was going to say the same thing, BoS will help with that. Plus if you are regulating your dps you can save up that extra threat for those 'enrage' type bosses where burst dps is really needed toward the end. You can do alot of white dmg and conserve mana for the end of the fight and then let loose, with BoS you shouldn't, in theory of course, be pulling any boss off of any tank. Plus keep in mind that a prot warrior's threat generation is going up as they 1). Do more damage and 2). Utilize their new skills/talents. A shaman doing 700 DPS RIGHT NOW would be a major problem, a shaman doing 700 dps at level 70 will be much less so I would imagine.
I don't see how a shaman that's autoattacking could ever pull aggro over a warrior unless the shaman isn't taking knockbacks and the warrior is. Even adding in some stormstrikes shouldn't be a problem since the elemental shaman would be getting the bonus from the 20% damage. Autoattacking should keep Unleashed Rage active and leave the shaman with mana to start spamming shocks and stormstrikes along with bloodlust when burst dps is needed.
I think I'm shooting for a Claw of the Blackdrake and a Dragonfang Blade for levelling. BWL weapons are not in high demand with our dps classes and they're still huge melee upgrades over Lok'Amir and a Lobotomizer (my current best options).
A high end enhancement shaman can, and frequently will, pull aggro off just about anyone if WF crits a lot. My guild had a particularly nasty enhance shaman until just recently who was capable of 4k total WF crits - we'd let him DPS in MC for kicks, he rarely survived. Granted, he didn't have TA totem down though.
Well, here's the thing- ask any feral kitty druid why they (short of 1.12) couldn't dps in raids, on farm encounters. Belive it or not that aggro is not trivial.
If a rogue is sustaining 100 dps, I pass 72 dps and I'm well out in front of him. So assuming that's constant, I -must- add 7.5% onto the dps of all rogues/hunters/warriors or I am flat out not useful in the group, since if I pass 70% of thier generated aggro I'm gonna have a whole heapin bunch of fun of raid boss.
BoSalvation is a wash, since there hasn't been a single raid encounter as it stands currently tuned for it. We can expect every single one to be tuned for it in the xpack, in addition to requiring the new aggro abilities from locks, the new poison from rogues....you see where I'm going? Saying BoS will solve all problems is not taking into account the realities of xpack encounter design will function, imo.
Of course we won't be a real dps class level, and it's our static dps + additive dps that will get us raid spots. I have -no problem- playing second fiddle and being god of multiplicative dps addition- in fact, if you check my post history I've been not-so-secretly cheering for that for a while (Ogun == Oggie, long story). I just am possibly worrying overmuch, but on ANYTHING aggro senstive we really are going to be up against that limit unless we get a passive threat reduction aura (or they change mechanics so nobody has one), even without straining ourselves on dps.
I'm basing this more upon the oh-so-common complaints of catform dps pulling aggro well before the damage done is anywhere in the same neighborhood, as well as the comments of us doing 80% real dps class's level of damage. I'm not saying 'zomg I'll be such good damage I WIN AT WOW', I'm woried that the threat mechanics might actively force me to downcheck weapons or gear because me doing all the damage I can is a very bad idea. It goes without saying that me attacking all the time is considerably more valuable than running at the threat limit and being forced to step back, due to unbridled wrath.
But okay, let's just say I'm crazy and be done with it, since apparently nobody agrees with me.
Without experience at 70 I'll say on face value the changes look good.
There are now solid reasons to go deep in any of the 3 trees and still be useful to a raid.
I must comment though on a few observations.
Nature's blessing not worth the 3 points imo, unless you really have nowhere else to spend them and with imp chain heal and nature's guardian I find that hard to believe.
My reasoning? Well it's basically it's the same talent as the priest sprit one and when I loked at the numbers for that the gear support just wasn't there. Take for example the tier 3 set the pieces they have between 35-60 +heal. To get the equivalent from int, with 3 talent points, you'll need items with 100-180 or so int. Not going to happen, especially when they have to balance this against the Unrelenting storm talent so those int pieces if they did exist would give you 10-18 mana/5s per piece!!!
I'd pass on Nature's Blessing unless you plan on some sort of crazy 61 point Resto build.
Elem tree, lightning overload. Again doesn't scale as well as raw +dmg gear. The maths for it work out basically the same as +crit gear with the Elemental Mastery Talent.
This puts 1% of crit or 1 point of lightning overload at the same as 4.5+dmg. It does scale with gear but even at +500dmg gear 1 talent point is still only worth ~+9dmg. Again just go get the +dmg gear you'll see much better return.
I'd only pick this talent up as it's a pre-req for Totem of Wrath.
The good? Well the biggest downer for shaman has always been mana regen, now in the elemental tree we have decent mana regen talent, and combined with us getting paladin blessing thingys mana will be much better.
I'm looking at a 40/0/21 build personally for some good DPS, but I can also see DW spec being good wielding 2x 1H healing wepaons even if it is a bit gimmicky.
Going dual wield just to get 2 1H healing weapons isn't going to help you as much as going deep Resto to pick up the healing enhancing talents. I mean its great if you're going enhance to be enhance, and then wear healing weapons for a fight that calls for it, but doing that and calling yourself a primary healer doesn't fit the spec.
That's how I read it as well, but at a cost of 600 mana whoever's responsible for keeping it up probably won't be responsible for too much else. If it's scaled to be really worth having on your MT, some poor sap gets to be the Earth Shield bitch who can't even get as far as elemental fury or improved windfury and thus has no role in any raid besides Earth Shield bitch and Mana Tide and whatever healing they can spare the mana for. And having to keep up with level 70s in pvp or soloing will be horrible for that person, a current mana tide shaman taking 10 more points in resto will have little more ability for anything besides healing than he did at level 60. It's not even an interactive ability to use, just fire and forget.
First off, it has 10 charges, and there's a cooldown on expending those charges. If something is autoattacking you, how long does it take to go through 10 lightning shield charges? That's how long I'd expect an Earth Shield to last. That's a pretty long while. I don't see how that makes anyone an "Earth Shield bitch." So you cast one really useful spell on the MT every 40sec or so, and otherwise play as normal? A 41 Resto shaman in TBC seems like it'll play much like a 30+ resto shaman does today, with a few more tricks available. Useless in raids? Hardly. A shaman who specs that way is one who wants to spend most of his time healing. My raiding spec will probably be 0/20/41, with Toughness and Earth Shield. Not too different from what I have now. Just a better healer.
Italics for emphasis. That's really my point. A 41 resto shaman in TBC will be like a mana tide shaman today with one extra trick that's a fire-and-forget buff. I'm not saying that's going to be useless in raids, that buff may well be very good, but compared to most other classes and compared to elemental or enhancement shaman it seems it's going to be business as usual for resto shaman rather than feeling significantly upgraded, nothing new to do and a lot of opportunity cost in that the resto shaman's damage (melee or elemental) will be further behind the curve than it currently is. I say Earth Shield bitch not because it's the only thing the resto shaman will cast (although they will probably will need to hold back to save mana for it; even every 30 seconds, 600 mana is a lot), but because someone's going to have to take it and be limited while everyone else gets to have fun, and I don't see casting earth shield periodically as a fun addition to our current role, it lacks interactivity and timing. Automation may be efficient, but it's no fun.
Concentrating only on the highlights, Dual Wield, Flurry, (for the JoW returns), Stormstrike bonus Oomkin or Elemental Shaman DPS, Unleashed Rage for the DPS group you'll be in, plus a relatively standard healing set for 28 points.
Stick this shaman in a melee dps group, with +stat totem, WF totem, Unleashed Rage up most of the time, with almost limitless mana from DW/Flurry/JoW, adding to caster DPS with Stormstrike, and casting Bloodlust on the dps group along the fight as well. Looks to be a very involved, and very specific build for raiding.
***
If we go by current standards, a second top tier healing weapon will give u more +heal than Natures Blessing (along with the stats that come with it), and you can only assume both gear and items will scale relatively equally in to tBC.
Currently, top tier weapons ~175+heal (average, if you had the top 2).
Currently, I highly doubt any raiding shaman would be walking around with ~<600 int.
Actively meleeing, and needing to keep meleeing in order to properly enhance your group's DPS, shocking for additional DPS where possible, maintaining totems, and remaining are enough to provide emergency healing, all at once, seems like a fairly involved raid role to me.
In a period of 2 mins we can use approx. -> 20 shocks, 7 totems, 7 shields, 8 cleanse/purge. If there was such a thing as GCR (global cooldown rule), Shamans undoubtedly spend the most time in it. Global cooldown alone eats up an insane amount of our time because we have so much more instant cast "side-tasks" aside from our central roles than other classes. Does this sound like anything we should be concerned about? Should shamans have a talent to reduce global cooldown on these abilities by 0.5s - 1.0s? Or even just make it a base?
I say Earth Shield bitch not because it's the only thing the resto shaman will cast (although they will probably will need to hold back to save mana for it; even every 30 seconds, 600 mana is a lot), but because someone's going to have to take it and be limited while everyone else gets to have fun, and I don't see casting earth shield periodically as a fun addition to our current role, it lacks interactivity and timing. Automation may be efficient, but it's no fun.
Except that I basically enjoy being a healbot, and there's always room for me to improve as a healer. For some people, healing in raids is fun. It's not like this skill is SO good that it'll force all shamans to spec it. But if you have that one crazy resto shaman in your guild who has always been resto, and likes it, then this is a good role for him. Personally I was nervous that Blizzard would move shamans away from being able to heal effectively, based on the early comments when the paladin/shaman announcement came down. I am glad to see that this isn't the case.
I don't see resto as benefiting a shaman's healing output to an extreme degree. I see it more from a general solo/5man/10man/pvp point of view where having earth shield makes you a more durable healer. One of the shamans major strengths to me has always been the ability to protect the squishier healers just by pumping out higher aggro heals and earth shocking in emergencies. Now this role is enhanced. Toss on an earth shield and grats, enemies hitting you heal you, you are uninterruptible on heals, and if you take Nature's Guardian, have a way to reactive self heal and fade if shit hits the fan.
The other real strength of Earth Shield, and it remains to be seen exactly what magnitude of effectiveness it has, is that it seems incapable of overhealing. Lightning shield only procs on melee strikes, not misses/dodges etc. If Earth shield works the same way, it should only heal when the target takes damage. 600 mana seems worth it for 10 heals that should land for near their maximum value.
I think I'm reading Earth Shield different from how a lot of people are. My interpretation is that you cast it on a target, and it works like Lightning Shield or Water Shield, except that instead of doing damage or returning mana, it heals when a charge goes off. So it's a pre-cast reactive heal. The key question is its magnitude and whether it benefits from +healing gear, but conceptually, how is that not very useful? I think that as described it specifically has no cooldown, but you can only put it on one person at a time.
It seems like an incredibly useful raid ability to put on a MT, no?
I read it same as you do, the tooltip says: "This shield can only be placed on one target at time", what the tooltip doesn't say
how much is the target healed, "% of incoming damage converted in healing", "% of my +healing is converted in healing",... who knows. However it seems a very good spell for the MT, and go figure if you have two mobs to tank ( something like emperors ) than you need two resto shaman <_<
Should shamans have a talent to reduce global cooldown on these abilities by 0.5s - 1.0s? Or even just make it a base?
Global cooldown is there to prevent people from spamming abilities, more as a way to even out the playing field between those with slower connections and those with high speed connections and to account for sever time on action execution.
With E.shield it is all in the details. If it heals 10% then it immediately becomes one of the best raid buffs in the game as it is effectively defensive stance 2.0.
One thing is certain though in 5-10 man content, healer shaman are almost always tanking something from heal aggro. Toss earthen shield on self and the shaman now has uninterruptable heals, 6-7k armor, improved chain heal etc. and is the ultimate 5-10 man healer.
Yes, the ability to make one person's spells uninterruptable by damage is incredibly useful as well. Stack this with paladin conc aura and you can make sure that a priest who needs to get off a MC or shackle can do so regardless of AoE damage going around, or a warlock can hellfire uninterrupted without the talent for it. And so forth.
Not that I don't love the theorycraft, but I'm wondering wether or not *I* get to choose what spec I will be. While the different post BC talent trees all seem viable raiding options, a big factor in what you contribute to a raid has always been your gear. A lot of the itemization so far hasn't left much room for different specs, and I'm wondering wether Blizzard will decide to itemize for all 3 different talent specs.
I won't be completely surprised if the gear availability for ie Enhancement shamans will have a bigger influence on wether it is a viable raid spec than the talent tree itsself does.
My main concern with Shamans is still that some more party buffs seem to be needed in the elemental and enhancement tress for more raid utility
The elemental tree is certainly still very "self-centered" until you get 41 points deep, but enhancement does have a few ways of improving your party. The addition of talents for an elemental shaman to help his caster group would be very nice to see - something akin to the 10% AP boost that enhancement shamans can provide.
I am not sold on the viability of a full elemental build in raids, personally. 30/0/31 or 31/0/30 or some variant thereupon? Absolutely, that'll be a great spec for raiding and PvP. You get the mp5 talent, and the good existing Resto talents, and you can finally get Lightning Mastery and Purification. But I think that going past 30 gets you comparatively little in a raid setting.
I do, however, think that every raid is going to want one 40+ enhancement shaman for a sham/DPSwar/rog/rog/rog group. Two full enhancement shamans, however, don't stack nearly as well, assuming that 2 of your warriors are tanking at any given time, and you aren't bringing more than 3 rogues in a 25-man raid.
The calculations are ofc not perfect since the Shaman also brings healing and wipe recovery to the table, but my stance is that unless individual DPS+4 buffed party members > 5 DPSing party members with some significant margin (let's say 5-10%), the resto shammy will still be the raid build of choice.
No, because the enhancement shaman can still heal, and a 5th DPS class cannot. You can't just set aside the fact that a shaman can heal as a minor benefit. A resto shaman can heal better than an enhancement shaman.
The question is whether the marginal value of a dual wield shaman's melee DPS plus the damage added by giving 10% extra AP to a DPS warrior and three rogues, minus whatever DPS a Resto shaman might be able to contribute, outweighs the marginal value of a resto shaman's healing advantage over an enhancement shaman. In marginal terms, the answer to that question changes based on your raid composition. But in a raid environment where 4 of 9 classes can heal, you are not going to want or need 12 full-time healers in a 25-man raid, but having 12 people who CAN heal if needed is quite useful.
From my guild's point of view our caster's are very much looking forward to the 41 pt Elemental totem to be combined with Wrath of Air, Mana Spring and Bloodlust all at the same time. So at least until someone decides that its not as worthwhile as they thought we'll have myself and one other shaman as 41 point elementals.
Changing gears a bit here, does anyone else think that with the current talent and skill sets in TBC, shaman will be the ultimate PvP battle healer? Current game-state, Paladins hold that title, but with the slew of new anti-interrupts, a hot that may or may not be dispellable (although unlikely it can't be disspelled, but one can dream), and more potent heals, not to mention all the offensive buffs we can provide, I'd venture out and say we'd be the most sought after class on the PvP battlefield.
From my guild's point of view our caster's are very much looking forward to the 41 pt Elemental totem to be combined with Wrath of Air, Mana Spring and Bloodlust all at the same time. So at least until someone decides that its not as worthwhile as they thought we'll have myself and one other shaman as 41 point elementals.
Same here as well. A caster support role has been an interest of mine for a long time. The addition of an Elemental talent or two which enhances party support is sorely needed though.
Nature's Swiftness still greatly concerns me, as even in the face of 41pt Elemental and Enhancement talents it is quite hard to justify giving up. Possible solutions to that pre-TBC have been debated here in the past, and I wonder if something like a tier change for NS or (gasp) maybe even a trainable form of it would be viable without being stupidly overpowered now that the bar is being raised.
I have mixed feelings about Earthen shield. On the one hand it can be a small heal per charge that just adds a bit to your healing or maybe act as a buffer after topping someone off to get some mana back. On the other hand it can heal a lot per charge which would make it great but would also make it a required spec for, say, the next Maexxna-like encounter in the expansion. I wouldn't like the latter...investing that many points into resto pretty much kills the hybrid side of the class. The huge dps increases that lightning mastery and dw+flurry provide for elemental and enhancement shamans respectively just aren't there for full restoration.
But then I look at improved chain heal and I don't know what to do. It's such a great spell.
08/29/06, 3:47 PM
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